The Borg will prevail

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The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 2nd, 2014, 4:32 pm

This comment was posted by none other than craigevil over at Mozillazine in a rather heated thread about systemd:
systemd may or may not be a bad thing. Personally as long as my system still works I see no point in changing.

Unfortunately, this the the attitude most users will take (if they ever have a clue what systemd is).
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 2nd, 2014, 4:37 pm

cragievil, installed tons of non-free software and always had a "if it works, don't care" attitude. He also could never make up his mind on whether iceweasel was firefox or not. Nothing against him personally, but his opinions don't matter.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 2nd, 2014, 4:41 pm

cynwulf wrote:cragievil, installed tons of non-free software and always had a "if it works, don't care" attitude. He also could never make up his mind on whether iceweasel was firefox or not. Nothing against him personally, but his opinions don't matter.

I agree that his opinions don't matter but I think they do reflect where a majority of users are coming from. Sad but true . . .
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 2nd, 2014, 4:47 pm

Well, a good proportion of Linux users either don't care or believe systemd is an improvement - but we knew that anyway as it's been adopted by the majority of distributions.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Sephiroth » December 2nd, 2014, 10:58 pm

Cyn I disagree there. Over 78% of the US population rejected Obamacare, but it was rammed down our throats anyway. I believe many users did not KNOW about it until it was too late. I also feel that the people do not influence the distro anymore. I feel like if they wanted to flash random BSOD's from Windows while booting Debian and the team/council/whatever agreed, that is what we would get. In other words, I feel like the decision-makers are out of touch with their user-base, like Washington D.C. lives in some fantasy world.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 2nd, 2014, 11:10 pm

Users will find out after the fact and will still have the option to vote with their feet - as will developers and maintainers. Let's see how many actually do... vs those who pull the sticking with debian bullshit...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » December 3rd, 2014, 1:22 am

Sephiroth wrote:Cyn I disagree there. Over 78% of the US population rejected Obamacare, but it was rammed down our throats anyway. I believe many users did not KNOW about it until it was too late. I also feel that the people do not influence the distro anymore. I feel like if they wanted to flash random BSOD's from Windows while booting Debian and the team/council/whatever agreed, that is what we would get. In other words, I feel like the decision-makers are out of touch with their user-base, like Washington D.C. lives in some fantasy world.


Oh my gawd where to even begin..

Let's start with the reference to US politics. Firstly, the political situation of any country has no place nor bearing on Debian. Since this is a multicultural and multiethnic distro - probably the most diverse of any distro for that matter - US politics mean exactly jack sh%t. Do you really believe that British, French, German, or Dutch Debian users/maintainers/Devs really give a f$ck about what is going on in the US? It means nothing to them. This makes the point you are trying to make meaningless and perhaps even offensive.

Now on to BSOD's and other such FUD and nonsense about Systemd. Can you share with us a pic or logfile of the BSOD you got from using Systemd? You are just spouting FUD at this point. I believe you know even less about Systemd than you do about Debian. And that leads in to the next thing which is,

"I feel like the decision-makers are out of touch with their user-base, like Washington D.C. lives in some fantasy world."

What the heck are you talking about? Debian is not run by a dictator. It is perhaps the only Democraticly run Distro in existence. Ever. While there are lots of constraints on who gets a vote, nevertheless, those who can vote, do vote using these things we call General Resolutions (GR). They just did one, in fact, about Systemd, and the democratic decision was that packages in Jessie can't have constraints put on them to prevent Systemd from being pulled in as a dependancy. This is how the vote went via democratic method. It was not by one person dictating it would be thus. So, in terms of leaders being out of touch? No, you are out of touch. Debian is not for you. I say that because using Debian requires at least some understanding of what Debian is about - its ideology, methodology, social norms, and etc. I think you hear from others that Systemd is bad for Debian and repeat that hate. This is doubly bad when you don't even know what you are talking about. Its just a hater throwing hate around. Mind you, I am definitely and firmly in the anti-Systemd camp, but what our camp does not need, is hateful individuals who just spread FUD and talk crazy sh#t on forums.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 3rd, 2014, 5:55 am

Buntunub wrote:Let's start with the reference to US politics.
I interpret the political reference to be intended to provide a comparison understandable to people who are cognisant of the situation in the U.S.A. Sort of an analogy, not as direct comparison claiming they are the same or somehow related.

What the heck are you talking about? Debian is not run by a dictator.
Not it is not, but
While there are lots of constraints on who gets a vote, nevertheless, those who can vote, do vote using these things we call General Resolutions (GR). They just did one, in fact, about Systemd, and the democratic decision was that packages in Jessie can't have constraints put on them to prevent Systemd from being pulled in as a dependancy. This is how the vote went via democratic method.
That is an example of an oligarchy, not a democracy.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 3rd, 2014, 1:20 pm

Sephiroth wrote:Cyn I disagree there. Over 78% of the US population rejected Obamacare, but it was rammed down our throats anyway.

I'm unfamiliar with the details, but I'm sure there wasn't a public referendum? You elect the president/government, they run your country (into the ground), there is massive procrastination and next election you vote for the other camp - rinse and repeat. Two cheeks of the same arse - sadly after decades of said farce, the masses have yet to grasp that.

There are no comparisons to be made. Debian is just a software project, which you and I and everyone else on this forum does not have any say in at all. The people with influence, the "doers" and those who donate time/resources/money get to say what goes.

The Debian project never had a "user community" and never cared about users like you. Debian does not even have an official user forums (unlike fedora, Arch, ubuntu, gentoo, Slackware, openSUSE, etc, etc, etc) and debian developers have rarely visited the de facto official forums (in fact they wanted to close it and nearly did) and those currently involved "hire" lackey volunteers to run it for them and only log in about once every 12 months if that... that's how important users are to the project.

It's not some kind of "democracy" which is there to serve the needs of all of it's users equally.
Sephiroth wrote:I believe many users did not KNOW about it until it was too late.

Absolutely correct. Yet those users were probably running testing or unstable, should have known the risks and should have looked at what they were installing and why. Those running the stable distribution would not have had this problem.

Can you see why the debian project may not pay attention to users running testing and unstable (most of which contribute nothing, not even bug reports) posting rants about systemd on a forum they never visit...?
Sephiroth wrote:I also feel that the people do not influence the distro anymore.

They never did.
Sephiroth wrote:I feel like the decision-makers are out of touch with their user-base

The decision makers are obviously out of touch with casual or non contributing users or people who use forums, but of course in touch with the needs of their members, corporate backers and the movers and shakers of the corporate Linux world. I don't think Debian did anything revolutionary or radical - they just opted to go along with what the rest of the Linux distributions were migrating towards.

This was a big change upstream in the culture of Linux, condoned by Torvalds who never interferes in user land and completely ignored by Stallman. Debian - a distro which is steeped in bureaucratic processes and run by what is more like a meritocracy of many dynamically elected or appointed individuals, rather than just one person or a few like minded individuals, was always going to go with the flow, so the decision should not be at all surprising.
Buntunub wrote:Now on to BSOD's and other such FUD and nonsense about Systemd. Can you share with us a pic or logfile of the BSOD you got from using Systemd?

You didn't read his post properly.

Buntunub wrote:"I feel like the decision-makers are out of touch with their user-base, like Washington D.C. lives in some fantasy world."

What the heck are you talking about? Debian is not run by a dictator. It is perhaps the only Democraticly run Distro in existence. Ever.

Well...

Buntunub wrote:While there are lots of constraints on who gets a vote

And there you have it... it's like the democracy, but only the politicians, the judges and big business men get to vote... "democracy" eh?

You could call it representation, but no one elected the ones doing the voting so they certainly don't represent anyone or anything except their own interests.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 3rd, 2014, 11:20 pm

cynwulf wrote:You elect the president/government, they run your country (into the ground)

Your point is understood and is generally true, but the American president is not elected by the voting masses. He is elected by the Electoral College, which is composed of members appointed by provincial ("state") governors and governesses, who vote for whichever candidate they are told to vote for. (The will of the people. :lol: )
cynwulf wrote:The Debian project never had a "user community" and never cared about users like you. Debian does not even have an official user forums (unlike fedora, Arch, ubuntu, gentoo, Slackware, openSUSE, etc, etc, etc) and debian developers have rarely visited the de facto official forums (in fact they wanted to close it and nearly did) and those currently involved "hire" lackey volunteers to run it for them and only log in about once every 12 months if that... that's how important users are to the project.
That is a little strange, considering the nature of Linux, forum-based interaction, and the size of the Debian project. Not that it is good or bad, but it does make Debian a little aberrant compared to most distributions, which at least give lip-service to caring. (Create a forum, invite feedback, ignore it.) One could look on the bright side though. If a distribution's developers actually listened to users and tried to give them what they want, the result could easily be a big mess, depending on nature of the distro's user base.
Last edited by Randicus Draco Albus on December 3rd, 2014, 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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