Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

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Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby fsmithred » June 10th, 2018, 11:28 am

Dear Init Freedom Lovers

Once again the Veteran Unix Admins salute you!

We are happy to announce that Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0 ASCII Stable is
finally available.

Devuan is a GNU+Linux distribution committed to providing a universal,
stable, dependable, free software operating system that uses and
promotes alternatives to systemd and its components.

Devuan 2.0 ASCII runs on several architectures. Installer CD and DVD
ISOs, as well as desktop-live and minimal-live ISOs, are available for
i386 and amd64. Ready-to-use images can be downloaded for a number of
ARM platforms and SOCs, including Raspberry Pi, BeagleBone, OrangePi,
BananaPi, OLinuXino, Cubieboard, Nokia and Motorola mobile phones, and
several Chromebooks, as well as for Virtualbox/QEMU/Vagrant.

The Devuan 2.0 ASCII installer ISOs offer a variety of Desktop
Environments including Xfce, KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, LXQt, with others
available post-install. The expert install mode now offers a choice of
either SysVinit or OpenRC as init system. In addition, there are
options for "Console productivity" with hundreds of CLI and TUI utils,
as well as a minimal base system ideal for servers. The minimal-live
image provides a full-featured console-based system with a particular
focus on accessibility.

The desktop-live images are the recommended option for people wanting
to explore and easily install Devuan 2.0 ASCII Stable, and also for
the press and those interested in reviewing the default Xfce desktop.

The efforts of Devuan developers are now focused on the third Devuan
release codenamed Beowulf (Planet nr. 38086). Preliminary installer
images should be ready for testing soon.

We would like to thank the entire Devuan community for the continued
support, feedback, and collaboration.

## Download

Devuan 2.0 ASCII images are available for download at:
http://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/

and from the ISO mirrors listed at:
http://devuan.org/get-devuan

The latter URL also includes information about the official Devuan
package repositories.

## Release Notes

Devuan 2.0 Stable Release notes include brief installation and
upgrading instructions, as well information on desktop session
management with the introduction of eudev and elogind, and on the new
mirror network accessible through "deb.devuan.org".

The Devuan ASCII release notes are available at:
https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt

## Upgrade

Direct and easy upgrade paths from Devuan Jessie, Debian Jessie, and
Debian Stretch to Devuan 2.0 ASCII are available.

Upgrade from Devuan Jessie:
https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev ... e-to-ascii
Migrate from Debian Jessie or Stretch:
https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev ... e-to-ascii

The following will be enough to upgrade if you are already using
Devuan ASCII Beta or Devuan ASCII RC:
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade

## Devuan Derivatives

Devuan is a reliable base system chosen as a base by many derivative
distributions. We are proud of the growing community of enthusiastic
developers benefiting from Devuan, and would like to acknowledge some
recent efforts based on Devuan ASCII:

Refracta: an installable live for home computing and rescue tasks
http://sf.net/projects/refracta

MIYO: featuring an Awesome desktop https://sf.net/projects/miyolinux/

FluXuan: built around Fluxbox http://fluxuan.sourceforge.io/

Maemo Leste: for mobile phones and tablets, including Nokia N900/N950,
Motorola Droid 4, Allwinner, and more https://maemo-leste.github.io/

DecodeOS: to build micro-services on anonymous network clusters over
hidden Tor services https://decodeos.dyne.org/

A list with more Devuan derivatives can be found at:
https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros

## Services offering Devuan

Devuan is a snappy, stable base for virtual server
applications. Several providers offer ready-to-install Devuan images
on their platforms, including:

Data Center Light: operated by a bunch of cool folks keen to give back
to the Devuan community. They have organised Devuan hackatons and have
had special offers in place on Devuan VMs https://devuanhosting.com

OpenNebula: which offers Devuan ASCII guest images off their
marketplace and for free http://marketplace.opennebula.org

## Contact

Mailing list:
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/m ... stinfo/dng
IRC: #devuan #devuan-dev (Freenode)
Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org
Press contact: freedom@devuan.org
Source code: https://git.devuan.org
Bug tracker: https://bugs.devuan.org
Popularity contest: https://popcon.devuan.org
Package information: https://pkginfo.devuan.org

## Appreciation

We wish to thank all of you for the incredible support given to this
development effort, which continues to make Devuan a useful and
reliable base distribution as well as a pleasant and cooperative
community.

To support the Devuan project you can donate at:
https://devuan.org/donate (includes financial reports)

or take up one of the tasks listed at:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1380#p1380

happy hacking ;^)
fsmithred
 
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby cynwulf » June 13th, 2018, 1:24 pm

From the release notes:
### Non-free firmware

All Devuan 2.0 ASCII install media make non-free firmware packages
available at install time
. In the majority of the cases, these
packages are needed (and will be installed) only if your wifi adapter
requires them. It is possible to avoid the automatic installation and
loading of needed non-free firmware by choosing the "Expert install"
option in the installation menu.

This has obviously stoked some controversy in certain quarters...

Reading that, am I to understand that the firmware is available on the installation media and to the installer/installed system? So essentially non-free firmware is now "opt out"?

Who/what reasoning was behind this decision? Link to mailing lists, etc?
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby fsmithred » June 14th, 2018, 12:06 pm

The decision to include the firmware on the installer media was to avoid the difficulties that people have getting the non-free firmware in debian. I don't have any links for this decision, but there were probably discussions on dng mailing list and in irc back when jessie was in beta. It was meant to be opt either way, but the installer hasn't been very cooperative about changing its behavior.

Firmware is already installed in the live images so that people can use them to test hardware compatibility and also make it possible to use the live isos for going online (to do banking or whatever). A script is included to remove it if you choose.
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby cynwulf » June 14th, 2018, 1:33 pm

I don't take issue with it personally. My view on this may be known by now, but I take the opposite stance.

I'm surprised that some have immediately highlighted this point, even dismissed the distribution/release, seemingly based on the the inclusion of the "non-free" firmware.

x86 is riddled with such firmware as standard, in the BIOS/UEFI, in the CPU itself, in hard disk controllers, video adapters, wired and wireless network adapters, bluetooth adapters, etc, etc... Most of this is non-redistributable and proprietary.

Yet a few images of such microcode is distributed with a free operating system and they cry blue murder. I would like to see an in depth technical explanation of what these non Linux (and non Windows) bits of firmware will do if they're sitting there doing nothing useful and taking up a tiny bit of storage?

None of these microcode images are executable by the OS, so they will not magically just become Linux binaries one day and start doing stuff... they will never be used/loaded unless someone has the hardware which requires them. Again technical evidence to the contrary would be appreciated from anyone who knows different.

Some hardware was designed around userspace firmware loading, rather than storing the firmware permanently on the device. There is no way around this - you either have the firmware and use the device or you rip the device out and replace it (with a device which likely has closed source firmware already in permanent residence...).

Once again - I would like to read a technical explanation about just how the firmware sitting in /lib/firmware (?) for a device you don't use is somehow "less free" / more dangerous than the proprietary firmware you know practically nothing about, which is already loaded and running on your BIOS/UEFI, CPU, hard disk controllers, video adapters, wired and wireless network adapters, bluetooth adapters, etc, etc..........
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby fsmithred » June 15th, 2018, 12:07 pm

Likewise, some have dismissed devuan because it has libsystemd0 and systemd service files. The service files do nothing without the service, and the library tells some apps that systemd is not running. That's more than I know about what libselinux is doing when I don't have selinux installed, and there's no speculation about that one coming from a nefarious source - it's a known fact. (it says so, right on the label)

If you ever come across that technical explanation you want, please share it with us.
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby cynwulf » June 15th, 2018, 1:15 pm

I've had numerous arguments about libsystemd0 in the past - with pro and anti systemd types alike. It seems that some just want that removed because it has the word "systemd" in it. In the past I've challenged some to just rm the file and see what happens... but thus far no one has been willing to do that or post back with the results.

From my observations, I believe there are two schools of FUD thought, when it comes to such irrational and ignorant behaviour with regard to e.g. systemd bits/cruft/remnants and proprietary firmware. There are those who take the "contamination" angle and there are those who believe that some firmware or unused cruft is going to magically "come to life" all by itself.

Both viewpoints are simply born out of a lack of basic understanding and a general unwillingness to change that.

This just seems to be a Linux thing, where emotionally driven fanboy behaviour and lots of hot air on forums, in place of sound technical reasoning, holds weight and passes for experience/knowledge.

It seems to me that you could post facts all day, but someone who just "feels" that having this firmware / systemd cruft installed on their machine is "wrong" will be loudly applauded and backed up...
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby fsmithred » June 15th, 2018, 3:23 pm

I tried making and using a dummy libsystemd0 package in jessie last year. Some things worked the same with the dummy package, but gvfs needed the real package. I didn't investigate further to find out why it needs the real package.

In refracta jessie, I was able to avoid libsystemd0 by not installing gvfs. I can live without a trash can on the desktop or popup icons for removable drives. In ascii, it's not so easy - xorg wants that library. So do a bunch of other packages. One idea that's been tossed around a little is for devuan to repackage libsystemd0 so we have control over what it does. I don't know how necessary that is, but it sure would be a lot easier than rebuilding every package that depends on it.

There might not be as much fanboism in the windows world, because they know they're already running the best OS. But maybe that's not sound logic. The mac users also know that they're using the best OS, and there's no shortage of fanboism there. Must be something else.
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby cynwulf » June 15th, 2018, 4:03 pm

The package gvfs-daemons is one source of the libsystemd0 dependency, but then there is also the matter of udisks2, which also has systemd dependencies in the form of libpam-systemd and libsystemd0. The former is simply the usual dependency chain which pulls in the whole systemd circus...

So I assume from the above that udisks2 in Debian requires systemd (running with the shim at least in order to function) and that Devuan worked around this? But perhaps not fully and something still needs looking at to completely sever the dependency on systemd?

It's also possible that udisks2, being so gnome centric (and gvfs being well... gnome), doesn't really care if it breaks on systems without parts of systemd or a full systemd/gnome setup running?
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby golinux » June 15th, 2018, 4:29 pm

cynwulf wrote:So I assume from the above that udisks2 in Debian requires systemd (running with the shim at least in order to function) and that Devuan worked around this? But perhaps not fully and something still needs looking at to completely sever the dependency on systemd?

Devuan dropped the systemd shim even in jessie. The offending pkgs have been cleansed.

It's also possible that udisks2, being so gnome centric (and gvfs being well... gnome), doesn't really care if it breaks on systems without parts of systemd or a full systemd/gnome setup running?

That's the definition of "lockin". It is no surprise.
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Re: Devuan 2.0 ASCII stable

Postby fsmithred » June 15th, 2018, 11:54 pm

Yes, udisks2 has been devuanized along with a bunch of other packages (bsdutils, util-linux, dbus, policykit-1...) but not all of them (xserver-xorg-core, samba-libs, sane-utils, rpcbind, openssh-server...)

I've managed to avoid libpam-systemd in Refracta, and now there is libpam-elogind, which allows me to install some things that I coudn't before.
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