Some movement

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Re: Some movement

Postby golinux » November 27th, 2014, 5:14 pm

Sephiroth wrote: . . . why don't we wait and see how the fork goes before we burn our money? :P
Chicken egg or egg chicken . . .
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: Some movement

Postby jheaton5 » November 27th, 2014, 9:26 pm

Dead chicken?
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Re: Some movement

Postby golinux » November 27th, 2014, 9:38 pm

jheaton5 wrote:Dead chicken?

Fricassee!
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Re: Some movement

Postby Buntunub » November 28th, 2014, 7:48 am

Well, levity aside, I am happy to see the Debian fork get off the ground now. It is officially a go. It is called Devuan.

https://devuan.org/

Time will tell if it gains traction or not, since it is just kicking off I think right now they are looking for support and DDs to help out. I really hope they succeed. If they at least get some medium of dev support, I would happily donate a large chunk of $$$.
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Re: Some movement

Postby Sephiroth » November 28th, 2014, 1:09 pm

It will be nice if it lasts, but as Cynwulf said, as developers of software cave, eventually systemd will be everywhere. At that point all distros essentially become RedhatOS. At that point I go pure Windows again until the next Linus shows his or her face and develops something really cool, like Linux used to be.
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Re: Some movement

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » November 28th, 2014, 1:22 pm

Sephiroth wrote:At that point I go pure Windows again until the next Linus shows his or her face and develops something really cool, like Linux used to be.
Why Windows and not BSD, Plan 9, Solaris or even Mac? Why is it only a choice between Linux and Windows?
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Re: Some movement

Postby cynwulf » November 28th, 2014, 2:53 pm

Perhaps if it comes down to Linux and windows, it's because it involves deployment of corporate workstations.

I would not want to be the person installing and looking after BSD or Plan 9 workstations... actually I expect that if anyone who does not just answer to themselves did that, they would be out of a job pretty fast. Solaris? no idea. OSX has the rather unfortunate downside of having to buy massively overpriced flashy tat in order to run it.
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Re: Some movement

Postby jheaton5 » November 28th, 2014, 3:30 pm

Buntunub wrote:Well, levity aside, I am happy to see the Debian fork get off the ground now. It is officially a go. It is called Devuan.

https://devuan.org/

Time will tell if it gains traction or not, since it is just kicking off I think right now they are looking for support and DDs to help out. I really hope they succeed. If they at least get some medium of dev support, I would happily donate a large chunk of $$$.

Elsewhere I have said I would like to see a Business Plan. The above link takes you to a website that is the beginning of a Business Plan. It sounds like they have clearly thought out what the goal is and what it will take (software changes) to achieve this goal. I'd like to see some financials, especially what their fundraising goal is and a progress report on contributions. They gloss over the amount of manpower needed to achieve their goal and maintain the distribution stating,
Soon we will be ready to welcome package maintainers
and
we welcome all Debian Developers willing to join us on this route
About a third of the Debian Developers voted for the last GR. Some of them, but probably no all, will be interested in joining the project. The site is sponsored by "Debian System Administrators" whoever they are. How much actual developing and package management a system admin can do is questionable, to me at least. Others may have a different opinion. I'm still skeptical but willing to take a "watch and see" attitude. Their plan to have minimal governance is similar to our plan to set up this forum. That plan has pitfalls as we found when we started.
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Re: Some movement

Postby cynwulf » November 28th, 2014, 4:04 pm

The big question is: Why the anonymity?

It raises the bigger question of: Do these people just want to melt back into Debian proper, as if nothing ever happened if this does not get off the ground with their reputations intact? It would certainly harm one's career prospects in the corporate Linux world if one was involved in a project which is anti systemd and pro "veteran unix admin"...
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Re: Some movement

Postby Buntunub » November 28th, 2014, 4:06 pm

jheaton5 wrote:Elsewhere I have said I would like to see a Business Plan. The above link takes you to a website that is the beginning of a Business Plan. It sounds like they have clearly thought out what the goal is and what it will take (software changes) to achieve this goal. I'd like to see some financials, especially what their fundraising goal is and a progress report on contributions. They gloss over the amount of manpower needed to achieve their goal and maintain the distribution stating, About a third of the Debian Developers voted for the last GR. Some of them, but probably no all, will be interested in joining the project. The site is sponsored by "Debian System Administrators" whoever they are. How much actual developing and package management a system admin can do is questionable, to me at least. Others may have a different opinion. I'm still skeptical but willing to take a "watch and see" attitude. Their plan to have minimal governance is similar to our plan to set up this forum. That plan has pitfalls as we found when we started.


The fork is being run by the VUA. Ladislav wrote a fairly extensive article about them here http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141027.

The Veteran Unix Admins (VUA) group has declared that they like Debian, want to continue using Debian and they hope systemd will remain a removable option. However, if systemd is here to stay, the VUA has declared their intention to fork Debian.


DW: How many contributors does this potential fork have?

VUA: VUA is a group counting little less than 1,000 subscribers on private fora, obviously the debianfork.org initiative doesn't involve all of us. We are receiving an overwhelming quantity of e-mails with offers to help, about half of them are by people that seem to know well the issues at stake and to be well capable to give a hand.


I do not think this is just some fly by night group that is toying with this idea. This is a dedicated group of Unix admins who do not want anything to do with Systemd, or moving their servers to it. It does have the support of some current DDs. Everyone who has been a DD or maintainer in Debian posting here should certainly already be in touch with them, I presume?.. So they can tell you more. Those people who have been a part of Debian who are unhappy with the move to Systemd should certainly contact them and find out more. It is definitely an opportunity to establish your skills and help to carry the torch of computing freedom.

I also wanted to address an earlier post about the RedHatOS thing. Look, I really do not believe that this is some kind of Red Hat takeover. I think its more about pure, unadulterated laziness and apathy amongst the developers of Systemd to code it in such a way as to make these dependancies unnecessary. It is laziness and apathy on the part of the DDs and maintainers to not want to bother with trying to code them out so that alternative init systems can be run without breaking things. The last GR was really nothing more than shining a very bright spotlight on that. It basically said, "Hey, if you don't want to code around the dependancies in your packages, you don't have to! It's your choice!" In the end, Debian can't force these maintainers to do things they don't want to do, and voting in some kind of resolution saying they must do this or that would ultimately end in failure, because very few maintainers would do it for long. Really and truly, the only answer is to fork Debian and proceed down a different path, with a different core philosophy. The Debian we all once knew and fell in love with, is dead, may she RIP. I do hope the new fork will revive her.
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