Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

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Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 12:09 am

is another option for a none systemd system
https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD

Installing it isn't as easy as installing Debian Gnu/Linux, but for sure something which can be done (in my experience).
Lots of things (like packagemanagement) are the same like on Debian Gnu/Linux.
Works well in Virtualbox (assuming one first wants to have a look).
qemu how-to: http://www.hermann-uwe.de/blog/testing- ... u-kfreebsd
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » September 28th, 2014, 5:18 am

My concern is that although the system uses a BSD kernel, the applications are the same, no? When applications, Gnome for example, become dependent on systemd, the choice will be to maintain a separate repository of systemdless packages or use the existing, systemd, packages. I do not know enough about the project to state with certainty, but I speculate two possible futures for GNU/kfreebsd: it will become a systemd system or the project will be abandoned. In short, I have doubts about how long GNU/kfreebsd will be a viable alternative to systemd.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby thatsbetterinit » September 28th, 2014, 10:23 am

when i originally formatted my last windows partition and officially "completed migration" years ago, i used xubuntu (gutsy, etch was in stable) and figured i'd be "ready for debian someday" :lol:

things got a lot better when i moved from puppy (blech) to xubuntu, and similarly better when i moved from xubuntu to trisquel. the commitment to removing binary blobs meant they had to make libre drivers work.

now for the relevant part: i know of no such effort from bsd. i started using debian when they dropped blobs out of the vanilla kernel, and as far as i know openbsd is the closest thing to debian and trisquel in this.

but removing blobs was something debian did to the linux kernel; which is more deblobbed, openbsd or debian kfreebsd? i know freebsd apart from debian (despite the name) is much happier with blobs than open is, but i don't know of any bsd kernel that works without blobs. can anyone set me straight on this?

i didn't mention pc-bsd. i'm sure it's no more free than openbsd, but i'm going to have 32bit stuff around for years to come, i'm not dropping that for bsd.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 11:42 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:My concern is that although the system uses a BSD kernel, the applications are the same, no? When applications, Gnome for example, become dependent on systemd, the choice will be to maintain a separate repository of systemdless packages or use the existing, systemd, packages.

The same problem exists for any other system which doesn't use systemd (assuming the dependency is a upstream one. Sometimes it is necessary, one will have to live without said software, or it is just bogus, one will have to patch it)
iow: It's the same applications for Gentoo, Slackware and *BSD* too (EDIT: I always forget Solaris. Kinda doesn't exist in my world)
No separate repository is needed, btw. It has something to do with how Debian does packaging (mainly the dependencies in the debian/control file). iow: We already got such "problems" with different kernels (and different architectures too).

I do not know enough about the project to state with certainty, but I speculate two possible futures for GNU/kfreebsd: it will become a systemd system.

Well: they are not compatible. systemd is a Linux only init, and that is a big part of all the moaning. I assumed after dozens of pages in threads that would be clear.

or the project will be abandoned.

It might be, it might not be. It is a speculation.

In short, I have doubts about how long GNU/kfreebsd will be a viable alternative to systemd

For sure the same problem for Gentoo and Slackware. See above. (And, like said, kFreeBSD can't become a systemd system, due to systemd's Linux only approach. It can only be abandoned or contain only a very few apps, like any other OS out there too).
Last edited by FretfulMother on September 28th, 2014, 11:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 11:47 am

thatsbetterinit wrote:but removing blobs was something debian did to the linux kernel; which is more deblobbed, openbsd or debian kfreebsd? i know freebsd apart from debian (despite the name) is much happier with blobs than open is, but i don't know of any bsd kernel that works without blobs. can anyone set me straight on this?

i didn't mention pc-bsd. i'm sure it's no more free than openbsd, but i'm going to have 32bit stuff around for years to come, i'm not dropping that for bsd.

common misunderstanding.
The OP is not about BSD. It is about Debian GNU/KFreeBSD. The BSD* systems don't really come into this (They come into it to a certain degree, of course, it is the same kernel. But if one wants to run BSD, then one should install one of the BSD's, not Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. On a daily basis one won't see much differences to a Debian GNU/Linux system. userland is the same, GNU, package system is the same, also GNU, init is the same one is used too, the shell too, etc).

If you click on the link i gave you will see that there is a 64 iso. Whatever the advantage of a 64 system might be, i for one sure don't know it.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » September 28th, 2014, 11:57 am

thatsbetterinit wrote:which is more deblobbed, openbsd or debian kfreebsd?
In order to be added to OpenBSD's kernel, the code must be provided. It is not a concern for software, but security paranoia. No secret code is added. FreeBSD, and therefore PCBSD, may be more blob-friendly, but I cannot state with certainty.

However, my concern with GNU/kfreebsd is not the permisiveness of the kernel, but rather the software on the GNU side. As systemd increasingly pervades Linux, how would GNU/kfreebsd avoid it?

FretfulMother wrote:The same problem exists for any other system which doesn't use systemd (assuming the dependency is a upstream one. Sometimes it is necessary, one will have to live without said software, or it is just bogus, one will have to patch it)
iow: It's the same applications for Gentoo, Slackware and *BSD* too.
No separate repository is needed, btw. It has something to do with how Debian does packaging (mainly the dependencies in the debian/control file). iow: We already got such "problems" with different kernels (and different architectures too).
If GNU/kfreebsd can use the same packages, but without systemd, then there is no problem.

or the project will be abandoned.

It might be, it might not be. It is a speculation.
Speculating possible scenarios, but only two. There are probably other possibilites as well.

For sure the same problem for Gentoo and Slackware.
It is actually a big concern in the Slackware camp. There is a fair amount of debate about how long or if systemd can be be held at bay.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 12:08 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:
For sure the same problem for Gentoo and Slackware.
It is actually a big concern in the Slackware camp. There is a fair amount of debate about how long or if systemd can be be held at bay.

What is your problem then? With kFreeBSD.
The same problem which exist for it exist for other solutions.
Any solution will be a workaround with drawbacks.

And of course it can't use the same applications. It can use the applications which are a) packaged for it and b) are possible to run without systemd (at least the latter is valid for any other OS out there).
That, like already said, is a big part of the moaning about systemd (also a big part of the moaning about bash by BSD users, btw).
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 12:18 pm

As systemd increasingly pervades Linux, how would GNU/kfreebsd avoid it?

How would the BSD systems do it? How would Solaris do it ?

GNU is the userland
Linux, kFreeBSD, Hurd is the kernel.
The rest is just software. It hasn't got that much to do with Linux (lots of it exists for Windows and MacOS too). Example. Firefox. It is not Linux, can be used on BSD, Windows, MacOS, etc too. Another example: Desktop Environments (minus Windows and MacOS, besides kde) and window managers. Go tell a BSD user that fluxbox is Linux software and have fun ...
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby allthatisthecase » September 28th, 2014, 1:20 pm

Barring hardware problems and certain system tweaks, all of the issues I've encountered in free software can mostly be avoided with the following:

1. Make yourself free from DEs and their tools. Their development seems to be very volatile. Five years they'll have a pretty decent setup and then they'll suddenly follow certain hypes like systemd, lightdm, compiz, etc. Restrict your workflow to a simple window manager, maybe an indication panel of some sort (and a lot of WMs have those built-in) and perhaps a file manager (or scripting in case you're mostly fine with ls, cp, mv etc.) and leave the productivity to non-DE programmes.

2. Make yourself free from GUI as much as possible. What always pains me is to see a wonderful project waste time and resources because e.g. GTK3 is crap compared to GTK2 and now tens to hundreds of people have to learn QT or whatever other toolkit will make them do their work without having their design decisions fucked up by the Gnome project or depend on millions of libraries.

3. Make it KISS and cross platform. E.g. it's very easy to migrate to a new OS when you have Fluxbox for it and most of your video and image conversion scripts work.

With all this in mind, my only real problems are:
-hardware
-learning about a kFreeBSD specific solution to supsend/resume as user
-system config (what's my hard drive called? where is fstab? etc.)
-will certain special case software like emulators be available? a lot of the ones I use are open source, so easily portable.
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Re: Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD

Postby FretfulMother » September 28th, 2014, 5:50 pm

-system config (what's my hard drive called? where is fstab? etc.)

That is what i meant above with not having to learn new stuff. fstab is just /etc/fstab, like on a linux system. For most config files i had to deal with (yet) that seems valid. "fdisk -l " and "ifconfig" will show other naming-schemes (which sure is unusal for me, but not that big a problem).

The rest of your problems i can't comment. To me that look like problems one might run into.

---
i fully agree with your summary (well: who woudn't ?).
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