My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Talk about anything you feel like talking about. Pull up a soapbox and pontificate to your heart's content. May contain some adult humour or otherwise objectionable content (NSFW). No warez, pr0n or illegal stuff.

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 19th, 2018, 11:08 am

nodir wrote:I thought military drones were already reality? bombing a wedding, any gathering of people , hitting a so called terrorist now and then, but usually not (and if, as said: without trial anyway).
I guess the point is that they are not fully automated yet. But we are already in a future i'd prefer to not have seen in my lifetime.

Yes, that's the point - it's bad enough already with existing drones. "AI" controlled "terminators" or "hunter killers" may still be sci-fi for now, but there are people spending billions in taxpayers money to develop this shit.

Imagine if one of these hypothetical things simply gets a fix on the target's phone and then simply fires on the target - when the phone could have been left with the target's mother or children. History tells us that this is all "regrettable", but totally acceptable "collateral"... history tells us that dropping a bomb down the target's chimney and wiping out the whole family to neutralise the target is an acceptable course of action (while violating airspace, sovereignty of supposed allies, etc).

You will hear all the excuses, it was a glitch, we're working on improving that, accidents happen, lessons learned (!?), etc... but the bottom line is that $NATIONALITY citizens are safer! ...
cynwulf
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: April 26th, 2011, 2:46 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 19th, 2018, 11:43 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Their propaganda is stupid. Talking about violence and baby animals. Even the most ignorant city dwellers know that animals and plants are harvested after they mature. A baby will not feed many people.

namibed wrote:but they do just that.
lamb's meat is considered "better" than mutton, calf "better" than beef etc.

+1 There is a reason why chicken is called chicken and not "hen"...

Chickens, though large enough to appear to be an adult bird, are still juveniles and are "intensively reared". In the UK most people don't really know what "hen" tastes like or what the texture is like. I lived in South America for a while, well over 10 years ago now, so hens (gallinas) hanging up in the market places, with their guts/eggs on display was a common sight (smell) - in the open air with the flies buzzing merrily around might I add - some super sick horror film for our vegan activist friends.

But when you need to eat, you need to eat and when it's boiled and simmered for an hour it's good enough.

Lamb is another good example. Mutton fell out of favour here several decades ago. Immigrants from asia do still get it via their local suppliers/markets, but if you go to some supermarket, you'll struggle to find it.

I have to confess that I'm somewhat unsure of what the principles of animal rights activists and those of DxE in particular, are actually founded upon? Animals themselves, don't respect each others' rights, eat each other (including each others young), are violent and in many cases are especially cruel - whether they're carnivores or not.

What part of that ideology is about factory farming and the conditions intensively reared livestock have to suffer, the environmental cost and that this small percentage of the world's population don't need to eat half as much meat as they currently do. And what part is quite simply what could be equated to "animals are cute, you murderer" and not a lot else.

Does, for example, a tiger which stalks and brings down a human in the wild have the right to eat that human? Do humans have the right to destroy it (as pointless as that would be)?

Is it just we, as humans, who are "above" the other animals, that should refrain from eating other animals? Is this not at odds with the ethos of animals having the same rights as humans?

In a nutshell - shouldn't it work both ways?

If the goal is "rights" and if animals, by billions of years of evolution, still eat each other, shouldn't we, as animals, still do the same?
cynwulf
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: April 26th, 2011, 2:46 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 19th, 2018, 12:14 pm

If the goal is "rights" and if animals, by billions of years of evolution, still eat each other, shouldn't we, as animals, still do the same?

not all animals eat other animals, some prefer plants (say cows and horses don't look outsteanding weak to me).

Humans don't have to, imho, and there are many which don't and are in pretty good shape. The teeth humans got also don't make it look as if they would be a typical meat-eating animal (grinders, no carnassials).
No one makes such a noise about food as meateaters: "WHAT? You eat not oatmeal? But you will suffer, you will get ill, you will die".
oatmeal gives different stuff (quite a bit of protein too, btw). The same stuff is given by other nutrition too (partly more of that stuff, partly in better quality). The same is valid for meat. It is not magic in any way.
Full vegan is a tough one, as far i can see, but it is possible too (i wouldn't lack the knowledge, but the money. That is only valid because meat and dairy products are as cheap as they are because of the way it gets produced).
quite some regions: It isn't (wasn't) unusual that the typical meal is rice and lentiles, and meat gets served during a celebration only, few times a year.

coincidence: Yesterday the very famous german TV satire "Die Anstalt" covered the whole subject of industrial production of (mainly) meat. Per incident. Jesus, it is sheer horror (for both, the animals, and the people who have to eat that crap). Gave me hard times to not switch to another channel.
Point is: you really don't have to be fanatic and search for the info.

Of course that is a mixture of separated questions, the big ones being: health and ethics.
But from both points of view it doesn't make much sense to eat meat.
The taste isn't that great either, unless you cover it in sauce, spice, etc (which here and now mainly boils down to sugar, say ketchup, and salt).
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 19th, 2018, 12:23 pm

To give an example: The typical bodybuilder says you will need 1.5 or 2 gram protein per kilogram of weight (some even say 3)
For a typical western person that is something between 100 and 200 gram of protein per day.
meat usually has 20 percent of protein (dried soja has 50 percent , pumpkin-seed 37, sunflower seeds 27, cheese ca 25).
To cover your daily needs you would have to eat half a kilo of meat, at minimum.

Which doesn't seem that good an idea (as long you don't stick to chicken and such: too much fat)
Hence: it is/can be *one* source of protein, but you really haven't got a one-size-fits all solution here. The little amount of protein you get daily by eating meat can easily be covered with the other foods which you have to eat anyway, assuming you are worried bout "getting enough protein" (and imho you should be).

The same is valid for anything assumed to be in meat. There really is nothing special about it, from that point of view (nutrients).

PS: the absolute minimum recommended, in Germany, is 0.8 gram per kilogram of weight (assuming you are not pregnant, not old, not doing any sports and adolescent. The absolute minimum). Still won't be able to sanely cover it with meat.
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby golinux » December 19th, 2018, 3:41 pm

And history repeats itself. Think of Roman decadence before the fall.
May the FORK be with you!
User avatar
golinux
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: July 23rd, 2011, 4:45 pm
Location: not a 'buntard!

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 19th, 2018, 11:53 pm

I do not want to get into the health debate because it is a thorny issue, but too much misinformation is being posted.

The claim that people can simply stop eating meat and be healthy is not true. Humans and other apes evolved to be omnivorous for a simple reason. Yes, contrary to popular belief almost all apes are omnivorous. The reason is meat is the only source of all protein.

What we need from protein are amino acids. There are twenty-two amino acids. The human body can synthesis all but three from various sources, such as milk, eggs and a few plants. The body cannot synthesis three of the amino acids.* A few plants (I forget if it is three, four or five) have them, but each of those plants only has one or two. Apes evolved eating meat, because it is the only source for all of them.

It is possible for people to eat a healthy diet without meat, but doing so requires extensive nutritional knowledge. It requires knowing which of the very small number of plants contain the needed amino acids. There problem is that most people who decide to stop eating the cute animals do not have the necessary knowledge and end up malnourished. It is not a simple case of replace burgers with salad and live happily ever after.


* Or is it five amino acids we must consume whole? It has been a long time since my palaeoanthrpology courses.
Klingons are fun, but Romulans are the sexiest women in the galaxy.
User avatar
Randicus Draco Albus
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: September 22nd, 2011, 1:22 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 20th, 2018, 12:24 am

that is wrong.

got to the next course. or just get yourself a few good books.
the best source for protein usually was considered eggs, that is why they have the biological value of 100 (aka: perfect, 100 percent). These days people say you can even get a better biological value by mixing (say eggs with potatoes). Meat, iirc, is around 80 (which is still pretty good on it's own, but who the fuck never mixes food?). Mixing rice with lentiles is also pretty good.
And yes, biological valency relates exactly to amino acids.

When it comes to vegan, then indeed it gets a bit difficult (but that is what i already said above). Doesn't make it impossible, just a bit difficult.

Dr Jörg Zittilau, Dr Norbert Kriegerisch, "Das grosse Buch der gesunden Ernährung" (the huge book bout healthy nutrition). One example of many.
The book is very good insofar it gives a short list which foodstuff contains which quantity *and* which quality of a given ingredient (also which illness comes from a lack, etc, but the list of food is pretty helpful. Nothing no one who isn't plain nut wouldn't think of anyway, but it destroys the widespread myths).

quick search result would have given you the same info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential ... in_sources
Although plants tend to have less protein per weight than animal sources such as eggs or milk, they are nevertheless "complete" in that, as a whole, they contain all of the amino acids essential in human nutrition.[10] The same is true for algae and marine phytoplankton. Eating various plant foods in combination can provide a protein of higher biological value.[11] Certain native combinations of foods, such as corn and beans, soybeans and rice, or red beans and rice, contain the essential amino acids necessary for humans in adequate amounts.[12]


So it is true that 8 amino acids can't be created by humans, and hence are called essential. Translating that to: only meat contains them is simply wrong.
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby JohnDeere630 » December 20th, 2018, 1:11 am

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. A cursory web search led me to these articles:

Regarding amino acids:
https://www.livestrong.com/article/4490 ... egetarian/

Short answer, yes, but with difficulty. It is VERY difficult for people on a vegan diet.

Equally as important as amino acids are vitamins.
https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitami ... s-animals/

There are 3 vitamins humans need that CAN NOT be found in plant products; they must come from either animals or the laboratory.
Vitamin B12
Vitamin D3
Vitamin K2
All 3 are essential for life.

And then we can get into phyto-based anti nutrients such as phytoestrogens, which may lead to a discussion on bio-availability. Suffice to say that just because an amino acid, vitamin, or mineral is present in a plant, doesn't necessarily mean your body can use it. Example: Animals contain heme-iron, whereas plants contain non heme iron, which you can use, but because it's bio-availability is poor, you need to eat a lot more of it.

An excerpt from the second link:
Bioavailability and Antinutrients
Iron is a prime example of the difference in bioavailability between plant-based and animal-based minerals. Iron deficiency is the most common nutrient deficiency in the world. And since iron plays a vital role in carrying oxygen to cells throughout the body deficiencies lead to fatigue, weakness, pallor, and anemia. Memory and cognitive problems are common symptoms when iron levels get too low.

There are two kinds of iron.

Plant iron = non-heme iron.
Animal iron = heme iron.
Plant iron, the non-heme version, is at least 3X less bioavailable than heme iron from animal sources. To make matters worse, plant-based foods contain antinutrients that further inhibit the absorption of numerous minerals, including iron. Phytates, for example, interfere with the absorption of plant iron, thereby making a poor source of iron even worse.

vitamins and minerals - plants vs animalsStudies have shown that vegetarians often have similar iron intakes to omnivores on paper, yet they suffer a higher degree of iron deficiencies. For example, a study of 75 vegan women found that 40% of them were iron deficient, despite average iron intakes that were above the recommended daily allowance (RDA).

Antinutrients are another topic all unto themselves.

But in essence, plants contain phytochemicals used to deter predators from eating them. Many of these phytochemical interfere with absorption of essential vitamins and minerals. Iron, calcium magnesium, and zinc are all hindered by various antinutrients. So when a plant-based food says it has 50% of your RDA of zinc, it may be off, way off.

In contrast, meat doesn’t contain these antinutrients, rather it contains vitamins and minerals in forms easy for us to absorb and utilize.


Not trying to step on anyone's toes, or convince anybody of anything one way or the other. In my experience, the whole vegetarian/vegan vs. meat topic is akin to religion. No combination of fact or logic will convince either side that they are mistaken. So be it.
$500 bounty paid for each pair of SJW balls...also for hen's teeth, unicorn horns and other imaginary items.
JohnDeere630
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: February 9th, 2011, 6:38 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 20th, 2018, 1:37 am

JohnDeere630 wrote:
Short answer, yes, but with difficulty. It is VERY difficult for people on a vegan diet.

That is what i said.

There are 3 vitamins humans need that CAN NOT be found in plant products; they must come from either animals or the laboratory.
Vitamin B12
Vitamin D3
Vitamin K2

Good example for the lists my book offers.
D (they don't distinguish any further): meat isn't listed at all, mainly fish and eggs, avocado, yellow boletus
K (they don't distinguish any further): meat and quite some plants, in general all forms of cabbage, including broccoli, sourkrout (let *me* add: anything fermented), field salad.
B12 (they do distinguish further): in meat the biggest amount, 70 ug, to be found in liver, else not impressive as far meat is concerned. Also in eggs, cheese, fish, etc.
I might have made mistakes when typing it from the book into text. But that's the general idea.

which may lead to a discussion on bio-availability. Suffice to say that just because an amino acid, vitamin, or mineral is present in a plant, doesn't necessarily mean your body can use it.

Yup, but the same is valid the other way around.

the whole vegetarian/vegan vs. meat topic is akin to religion. No combination of fact or logic will convince either side that they are mistaken. So be it.

Yup, but as you said: either side.
Though i got to say that due to all that "oh my god, you will miss something" usually tends to make vegetarians and vegans think slightly more about food (and which offers what). Not all though, i once had contact to a vegan women (way before it was hip), and she mainly ate goodies (yup, she looked like shit).
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 20th, 2018, 9:31 am

JohnDeere630 wrote:Vitamin B12

Interestingly, I once read that grazing animals (ruminants in particular) get their vitamin B12 from bacteria in the soil. So yes, they eat small animals to get their Vitamin B12.
nodir wrote:meat isn't listed at all, mainly fish

I suppose interpretations differ, but to me at least fish=meat=an animal. Fish is a vertebrate after all.
cynwulf
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: April 26th, 2011, 2:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Nonsense

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

x