My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Talk about anything you feel like talking about. Pull up a soapbox and pontificate to your heart's content. May contain some adult humour or otherwise objectionable content (NSFW). No warez, pr0n or illegal stuff.

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby debil » December 4th, 2018, 3:58 pm

cynwulf wrote:Well one could say that they wanted to get media attention and they succeeded. If you read about this group, you will find that they are animal rights activists.

Have to admit I didn't delve that deep into the group's reasons to exist. It's good that we have different ways of expressing our opinions on things.

cynwulf wrote:There is a reason that some of these groups are labelled "terrorist" by some, mainly because they use extreme and/or direct methods, often physical, often criminal (breaking and entering, releasing animals), but most notably because, as with terrorists, they target those at the bottom to supposedly force the hand of those at the top.

If the goal is to disclose injustice for the general public, I whole-heartedly support breaking of laws. Images and video material from the insides of a factory farm or a fur farm is a good eye-opener if one is able to view such material (one should). Because if some brave individuals didn't do it illegally, nobody wouldn't, least of all the producers themselves. I don't support stupidity such as releasing animals to the wild or causing unnecessary damage to property owners et al.

nodir wrote:The people are the system.

Indeed. By targeting the people they (we, you...) target the big corporations as well. The big corporations are only interested in what brings in the biggest money. Hence, individuals' choices in their daily lives quite concretely affect the companies' money flow.


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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 4th, 2018, 5:22 pm

debil wrote:Indeed. By targeting the people they (we, you...) target the big corporations as well. The big corporations are only interested in what brings in the biggest money. Hence, individuals' choices in their daily lives quite concretely affect the companies' money flow.

I don't think it's ever going to be that simple.

If we look at certain types of "terrorist" acts, it quite often plays into the state's hands. This gives rise to claims that some terror offences are "false flag" events or the result of deliberate non-intervention by intelligence agencies, etc.

It could be argued that the media portray such groups in a poor light, but the kind of disruptive and naive tactics they use, just invite ridicule.

Acts against the people, don't generally win the people over and if "the people are system", that's another lost cause. So yes gate crashing someone's meal in a restaurant, will not win them over, if that's even the objective. If it wasn't the objective, then I can only assume that media attention was - and that wasn't favourable either (quite predictably).

It's a difficult one, it's admittedly an issue which isn't really being addressed at all by any except some charities and these types of activist groups among them...

But you could also look at the automobile. It kills around 1 million people per year world wide and maims many more (and anyone's guess as to how many animals), we ignore all that because it's become an accepted cultural norm, an acceptable risk, it's all worth it because people want ("need") to drive, it's simply worth those lives. Motorways, those uncontrollable strips of tarmac (slicing through previously unspoilt countryside) packed full of vehicles - and their drivers of variable levels of competence, sleep, attention span and alcohol/drugs, are simply worth it and absolutely the only way we know.

And most importantly it's all about profits, it "creates jobs" and then there are the connected industries - oil, etc. And that's before you talk about the pollution and thus catastrophic damage to the environment and health from the automobile - costing even more lives - not just human.

If I were to turn up at car dealerships with images of crashes and try to disrupt car sales, it goes without saying that I would not be successful. If I were to stop drivers by blocking the road and holding up placards showing slogans, crashes, pollution, etc, I would not be successful.

In France at the moment, they demonstrate about the price of their fuel, not the pollution it creates.

So in my view, to solve any issue, you have to get to it's root and that has to be in exposing the malpractice of any industry at the source, in a very public way. Not by public shaming and attempt to humiliate those you're supposedly trying to reach.

Only about 1% of the UK population were Vegan in 2016 according to the Vegan society: https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/ ... at-britain

So that kind of tactic, certainly loses the other 99% (not to mention a big part of the 1%).

As with anything in society, readjustment is slow for most people, otherwise people put up mental barriers fairly quickly. For example, if someone first becomes vegan for heath benefits, they will be more willing to look into how animals are treated and possibly feel glad they're no longer part of that.

What I think I'm saying is that people have to make up their own minds, not through someone gatecrashing a restaurant and essentially telling them that what they are doing is wrong/disgusting.

But people turn a blind eye to the ethical problems surrounding the supply of the things which they enjoy, whether it be sports shoes, petrol, beef, coffee or wine...

And many activists also turn a blind eye to the bad things which are not strictly their chosen cause...
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 4th, 2018, 5:35 pm

automobiles is another serious problem.
I for one sure never got used to them or accepted them.
Some do target that subject, but as vegans are considered to be plain nuts.

As far as convincing the people of "anything": it won't happen.
So you might just as well give them a bit of the business.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby debil » December 4th, 2018, 9:05 pm

cynwulf wrote:
debil wrote:Indeed. By targeting the people they (we, you...) target the big corporations as well. The big corporations are only interested in what brings in the biggest money. Hence, individuals' choices in their daily lives quite concretely affect the companies' money flow.

I don't think it's ever going to be that simple.

The "vegan boom" of Finland during the last few years shows exactly what I wrote above. Recently even the country's largest dairy producer launched its own plant-based product line.

cynwulf wrote:But you could also look at the automobile.

While I appreciate the analogy, the connection to animal farming is slim. Maybe if we're talking about them both being commodities. What I'm seeing in meat and dairy production is basically Holocaust 2.0. The automobile industry doesn't explicitly *need* suffering and killing of billions of beings in order to function.

cynwulf wrote:So in my view, to solve any issue, you have to get to it's root and that has to be in exposing the malpractice of any industry at the source, in a very public way. Not by public shaming and attempt to humiliate those you're supposedly trying to reach.

I agree.

cynwulf wrote:What I think I'm saying is that people have to make up their own minds, not through someone gatecrashing a restaurant and essentially telling them that what they are doing is wrong/disgusting.

Absolutely. And this is why "be the change you want to see in the world" strategy works. You become the example that works.

cynwulf wrote:But people turn a blind eye to the ethical problems surrounding the supply of the things which they enjoy, whether it be sports shoes, petrol, beef, coffee or wine...

All too human.

cynwulf wrote:And many activists also turn a blind eye to the bad things which are not strictly their chosen cause...

All too human.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 4th, 2018, 10:31 pm

debil wrote:The "vegan boom" of Finland during the last few years shows exactly what I wrote above. Recently even the country's largest dairy producer launched its own plant-based product line.
That is funny. Dairy products with no milk. I have never understood the vegan idea of not consuming anything that comes from animals, like milk. Are they also opposed to gathering fur cats shed and using it for some purpose? If not, they are hypocrites and more than a little idiotic. In India kine are sacred, but people still drink the milk (renewable resource) they provide.

While I appreciate the analogy, the connection to animal farming is slim. Maybe if we're talking about them both being commodities. What I'm seeing in meat and dairy production is basically Holocaust 2.0. The automobile industry doesn't explicitly *need* suffering and killing of billions of beings in order to function.
The food industry does not explicitly need suffering either. Animals are made to suffer because it is convenient for the industry. Animals can and should be raised humanely. And it is easy to kill animals, including humans, without causing discomfort. Better regulations might be a better solution than shutting down the industry.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 5th, 2018, 7:51 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote: Better regulations might be a better solution than shutting down the industry.

The best solution is to do nothing at all, it seems.
Or is there any deadline when the regulation will happen, not a vague future to come?

I have never understood the vegan idea of not consuming anything that comes from animals, like milk.

Probably because they live/suffer under similar conditions. I guess it is easy to figure out if one really wants to know why.

Those conditions for a pig in germany: 0.8 qm.
If it is bio/organic: 1.3 qm
Now that is what i call progess, and all due to the power of the consument.
Give it a try for a few days. Or perhaps hours will suffice.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 5th, 2018, 9:40 am

debil wrote:While I appreciate the analogy, the connection to animal farming is slim. Maybe if we're talking about them both being commodities. What I'm seeing in meat and dairy production is basically Holocaust 2.0. The automobile industry doesn't explicitly *need* suffering and killing of billions of beings in order to function.

I have to respectfully disagree, the automobile causes the deaths of around 1 million people worldwide, untold suffering, not to mention the impact on health and the environment as a whole (contribution to global warming). How many animals have died or been maimed on the roads in a given country every year for absolutely nothing? Habitats have been destroyed to build motorways. The pollution from burning fossil fuels finds its way into water courses. All of this destruction and death is seemingly perfectly acceptable - necessary in fact to the survival of that industry.

Whether you find the analogy relevant or not - the relevant part is that reaching the driver, to raise awareness of the real problem will not be achieved by that type of "direct protest". Which has been my point all along - what is that kind of protest going to achieve? Does it set out to make enemies of those diners? Does it seek media attention, knowing that mainstream media cater for the "mass consumption" for the lowest common denominator.
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:That is funny. Dairy products with no milk. I have never understood the vegan idea of not consuming anything that comes from animals, like milk. Are they also opposed to gathering fur cats shed and using it for some purpose? If not, they are hypocrites and more than a little idiotic. In India kine are sacred, but people still drink the milk (renewable resource) they provide.

If we were talking about healthy cows roaming over lush green (organic) hillsides, milk maids and their buckets, etc you might have a point. The reality of dairy farming is very different (it might put you off your morning milk).
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 5th, 2018, 9:47 am

How many animals have died or been maimed on the roads in a given country every year for absolutely nothing?

Pretty sure, hence not checking it.
In Germany 3 million animals get slaughtered every day.
And, as said, 1/3 of the pigs go right to the rubbish dump
(i guess mainly the latter may count well as "absolutely nothing").

Though, as already said, automobiles are a similar severe subject (which might easily make you go straight nuts).
Sooner or later mankind will have to give up on private automobiles. A pity i will be either be dead or at least have suffered he biggest part of my life by it.
Right in front of my house there is speed restriction (30 km/h). The slow ones go 50, most go 80, some go 100.
To put it different: The one doesn't exclude the other problem.

Another subject: No matter if you are vegan, vegetarian or if you eat anything you get served:
What you eat is utter crap, poisoned, low on whatever you hope to find in it (vitamins, minerals, etc), tastes like shit, and so on.
If you got the money, you could go for organic (which is slightly better, as long it's not the crap they sell as organic in the supermarket).
Or grow it yourself. Back to the stoneage. What a wonderful life.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 5th, 2018, 10:02 am

If we were talking about healthy cows roaming over lush green (organic) hillsides, milk maids and their buckets, etc you might have a point. The reality of dairy farming is very different (it might put you off your morning milk).

Indeed.
If someone cares at all, then going full vegan is the thing which would make sense.
I for one don't, i can do only that much (as far meat is concerned to me it's easy, as i don't like the taste anyway).
But don't get me wrong: i am not of the ones who believe in the power of the consument. The subsidies easily make all those efforts null and void.

Weird no one referred to "12 monkeys" yet. Let's not forget to have some fun.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 5th, 2018, 10:14 am

Last one:
.... will not be achieved by that type of "direct protest". Which has been my point all along - what is that kind of protest going to achieve? Does it set out to make enemies of those diners? Does it seek media attention, knowing that mainstream media cater for the "mass consumption" for the lowest common denominator.

Sometimes humans do things only to express their anger or sadness or other emotions.
In fact: most things a human does don't go anywhere.
iirc it was Montaigne who thought of "not being able to express your sufferings anymore" as the worst thing he could imagine. He put it in beautiful words, of course:

"Es gibt keinen Zustand, den ich mir grausamer und unerträglicher denken kann als den, bei lebendiger und schmerzerfüllter Seele der Fähigkeit beraubt zu sein, sich selbst Ausdruck zu verleihen"
(have fun trying to translate that monster of a sentence. Monster as in the french "montrer", to show)

Time to go skating now, to forget all the horror (and be it by a good old fashioned faceplant). stay tuned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4F9gjEkxg
"hall of meat", full circle. Damn, i got a run, it seems
Last edited by nodir on December 5th, 2018, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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