MS still up to the same old tricks...

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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby dryden » June 10th, 2018, 3:43 pm

cynwulf wrote:Microsoft is to acquire GitHub for an eye watering 7.5 billion USD...


I am not going to stay with GitHub because of this.

It's interesting that deals such as this one will be brushed aside by the "Microsoft has changed" denialists


I will never say that Microsoft has changed, this is nonsense. In fact, I think Microsoft is much worse today than in the past, which I base solely on the lousy quality of products it puts out today.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby dryden » June 10th, 2018, 3:53 pm

cynwulf wrote:I'm not a developer, but I actually think the comparison of services like GitHub with services like facebook and twitter is relevant.


I am. And I regret not instantly moving my projects off because they get "tainted".

Not tainted with closed source.

I don't want to owe anything to Microsoft because:

  • The development tools (such as powershell) have become increasingly weird
  • Azure as an example is a hotpot of confusion
  • I have no clue how to use Microsoft tools (servers)
  • The Windows Phone is the worst user interface I have ever witnessed
  • The Tile interface of Windows 8/10 goes with that and is as a result equally as bad (and stupid)
  • The whole touch/mouse merger is folly and their biggest mistake
  • I was never a fan of ASP
  • I never much liked Visual Basic and Visual C++
  • Windows 10 has the worst boot-reliability in history
  • The merger of the classical and metro interfaces is a mess
  • The App store was promising but ended up having only low quality crap

Microsoft doesn't do anything good these days because they discarded their identity when buying into the "the desktop is no more" craze,

it's a muddled, confused mess (like Systemd btw),

and I just don't want to be "fed" by that when developing my own code.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby golinux » June 10th, 2018, 5:40 pm

The question is . . . who is the troll here? cynwulf, why do you keep feeding?
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby dryden » June 10th, 2018, 7:00 pm

That would be you, quite clearly.

An adult would let 2 people talk.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby dryden » June 10th, 2018, 7:05 pm

Just moved all of my repositories off Github.

Well, most of them were private, and they are still there, but I will lose access.

I was a paying member.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby cynwulf » June 10th, 2018, 7:31 pm

dryden wrote:The Linux foundation is funded by parties who recognise that they get to sponsor, but not direct, at least not to the greatest extent.

The Linux foundation has a board of directors... how can you know the extent of the influence? We can only assume that fortune 500 companies don't just throw millions of dollars at the Linux Foundation and funding developers for no return.

dryden wrote:Red Hat is the sole contributor (probably) to e.g. Lennart Poettering.

Linux distributions can avoid systemd, but apart from a few exceptions there seems to be no real will. Is that Red Hat's fault?

dryden wrote:Linus is basically his own man, he doesn't have an "employer", he probably founded the Linux foundation himself too, he gets to decide what he does, because that's how it started.

No it wasn't founded by Torvalds, FSG and OSDL merged to form LF. These were "industry" groups as is LF. The biggest user of the kernel is google - in it's Android OS. Then the embedded devices market, then servers. The people ranting about systemd on their desktops are barely a blip on the radar - in essence you simply don't matter.

dryden wrote:So you have X companies from various parts of the world contributing PARTS to the kernel.

systemd is a corporate sponsor contributing to "part" of an OS.

To just pull out one example: In general one must use CUPS to print office documents, graphics, etc - it's an Apple project, yet I don't see many complaining about that?
dryden wrote:Numbers, cynwulf. You pretend that because (or if) MIcrosoft donates $1, that that's going to be the same thing as Red Had contributing $100k.

Microsoft and others are top donors - Red Hat are nowhere near. Have a look at Linux Foundation website and board of directors. Where are Red Hat?

Red Hat is spending it's own money, going out on a limb as it were, developing it's own software, which has been readily adopted. It's sad news for some, but I can't see how that's Red Hat's fault.

dryden wrote:Just because Lennart Poettering conceived of the idea himself, doesn't mean he is not a corporate rat making choices that are beneficient to his employer.

As with the "corporate rats" involved at every level of Linux and other FOSS projects...

dryden wrote:It's pretty clear the financing model of systemd is direct employment, while the financing for the Linux Kernel comes from a diverse array of sources.

So AMD and Intel developers, just as two examples, are not being paid to work on Linux kernel development? You have those directly employed a handul employed by the LF (funded by much the same) and all of the others.

dryden wrote:Each of these systems are extremely arrogant, supersede existing structures, demand that they are the sole arbiter of some functionality, overtake choice points with their own plugin that should NEVER be allowed to make those choices, and so on.

They can only be allowed to do this if developers and distributions "get on board" - which they have.

dryden wrote:Clearly, I criticized both. I am not a Gnome fan, I don't see how you come to think systemd critics are not Gnome critics.

What is Devuan doing regarding gnome? Has Devuan removed gnome altogether along with other questionable software? Slackware Linux hasn't bothered with gnome for years, they seem to do ok without it and if you really wanted it, it was available via a 3rd party.

dryden wrote:The sites you linked initially are extremely panicky, vile, hostile against Microsoft

You seem to be extremely panicky, vile, hostile against Poettering and Red Hat?

dryden wrote:Yet you see the kernel paymasters as a problem even though their sources are diverse with many companies like Google actively using Linux

I still don't see why you see a group - an inustry group - as being "no threat" because there are more of them involved? You're being excaptionally naive in your choice to focus on bogeymen of the minute Lennart Poettering and Red Hat, while the real "threats" are flying in under the radar as we speak - and have been doing so for over a decade.

dryden wrote:but you don't see the Red Hat paymasters as a problem, even though the payment source is monolithic and they have direct, total control.

Because Red Hat controls/influences one big piece of shitware and a few smaller pieces of shitware which can be avoided... No one really jumped on board the whole SELinux thing, except Red Hat for example. Developers have jumped into bed with systemd because it's seen as a progression. Many sysadmins absolutely love it. It's been adopted, not because of the efforts of Red Hat (don't give them that much credit), but because we've seen decades of "corporate creep" in Linux and a huge shift in mindset from the old "POSIX or nothing" style to the people which the likes of Canonical/Ubuntu lured over from MS Windows. Canonical and SUSE jumped on the bandwagon for much the same reasoning (business). Read the Linux Foundation bulletin about GitHub - these are the "mouthpieces" now running the show, oozing patronising corporate speak from every pore.
dryden wrote:Of course it depends on numbers, who are you bullshitting? I am going to end this debate, you are just trolling.

Do you actually know what the big players are pumping into Linux and other FOSS projects (it's a lot more than Red Hat spend on Poettering's wages).

Red Hat is a speck compared to Microsoft. The latter obviously can't buy the former, but if need be it could enlist others to do so, as it has done with SUSE. Microsoft should never be underestimated, it's a giant, it can afford to throw 7.5 billion USD at a git hosting site.

dryden wrote:And how has the Linux kernel been swayed in a detrimental direction?

How do you know it hasn't? It's own lead developer admits that it has more lines of code than they can ever audit. But the project has long since been controlled by corporate interests such as google, IBM, Intel and now Microsoft. They pay, indirectly or directly, many of the most important developlers.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby cynwulf » June 10th, 2018, 7:33 pm

golinux wrote:The question is . . . who is the troll here? cynwulf, why do you keep feeding?

I don't regard "dryden" as a "troll". He is free to continue posting here so long as he/she wishes, despite comparing my intelligence to the like of pre-school level.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » June 10th, 2018, 11:30 pm

I see both Red Hat and Microsoft as threats, but of different natures. Both use their money to gain greater control, but go about it differently.

Red Hat pays people (Poettering, Torvals, Gnome developers, etc.) to develop software. As this key software is adopted, it gives Red Hat more control. But at least there is nothing clandestine about it. What they are doing is clearly visible. It is unfair to place all the blame on them when everyone else joyously adopts their "progressive" software.

Microsoft is a different animal. They are infiltrating. Github is only one acquisition. How many more will there be? Buying enough small pieces, in the right places, can give a person or company a great deal of control over the whole. Given Microsoft's history, people should be concerned. Infiltration includes contributing money to the kernel and Linux Foundation. It may not be a large amount, but it is an investment. A tiny amount of influence in those areas will be all that is needed if they continue buying projects.

I believe Red Hat is trying to gain a large amount of control over Linux development, but at least their goal is not entirely nefarious. They want to be the biggest player, and thereby, make more money. One the other hand, Microsoft's goal has always been to eliminate all competition. Their increasing involvement and infiltration of open source should worry people.
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby cynwulf » June 11th, 2018, 11:48 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Microsoft is a different animal. They are infiltrating. Github is only one acquisition. How many more will there be? Buying enough small pieces, in the right places, can give a person or company a great deal of control over the whole. Given Microsoft's history, people should be concerned. Infiltration includes contributing money to the kernel and Linux Foundation. It may not be a large amount, but it is an investment. A tiny amount of influence in those areas will be all that is needed if they continue buying projects.

Microsoft cannot just dive in and buy up it's competition. It's been there before - plus there's no real need. They only need to finance "friendly" companies ("partners") to buy what it wants to control/influence and avoid all of the anti-trust lawsuits.

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:I believe Red Hat is trying to gain a large amount of control over Linux development, but at least their goal is not entirely nefarious. They want to be the biggest player, and thereby, make more money. One the other hand, Microsoft's goal has always been to eliminate all competition. Their increasing involvement and infiltration of open source should worry people.

I don't see Red Hat as really making any inroads in influencing kernel development, purely because as a distribution which charges for support, they have little to gain. Red Hat has instead opted for the "black box" of systemd.

Red Hat is not the only horse in this race, not the only problem and certainly not the biggest by far.

I wonder how many consider the implications of corporate funded or fully owned 'free software' such as chromium, webkit and firefox? Far from the old days of the MSIE 'monopoly', we are now in a situation where there are currently only a few real contenders: Apple's webkit, google's blink and mozilla/Samsung's Servo. Corporate money is paying these developers. Smaller layout engine projects are foundering due to lack of development... even some of the smaller and more obscure web browsers use the webkit engine for example, rather than developing their own. I can only think of a few examples such as netsurf and dillo which use their own layout engines and they are extremely limited for "modern browsing needs" and last time I checked netsurf, javascript support was still experimental...

The predictable results of corporate intervention/development/funding in "free" browsers has been built in google spyware, geolocation and of course w3c's google DRM (EME). But of course we all have full featured multimedia shit and youtubes now so who cares...
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Re: MS still up to the same old tricks...

Postby jheaton5 » June 13th, 2018, 4:11 pm

golinux wrote:The question is . . . who is the troll here? cynwulf, why do you keep feeding?

I say let them continue. It's the most traffic the board has seen in a long time.
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