Systemd discussion

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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby cynwulf » February 4th, 2016, 2:42 pm

nodir wrote:You had the choice before. I don't know how long, but you had it.

Well you got sysvinit by default and then if you wanted something different you had to install it. You weren't presented with options during install and that's still the case.

Now you get something which seems to get dragged in very easily. There does not seem to be any kind of will to preserve "init system choice" as some would call it. That's not just a Debian problem, it stems from the attitude of other free software developers. The gnome project in particular regard systemd as a hard dependency, if not a "base", to that desktop and the Debian gnome maintainers have pretty much said that they will ignore bugs where systemd isn't installed. Not much you can do about this - it's their project after all, so you either use it as is, hack it or vote with your feet. I can easily avoid gnome (and KDE), so it doesn't bother me as such.

nodir wrote:slackware, gentoo and dragora all used different init systems (again: for how long?).

Slackware uses sysvinit with BSD style rc scripts, so it's sysvinit really and has the sysvinit run levels and makes even more use of them than Debian does. (e.g. you edit /etc/inittab to change the default runlevel to start the display manager - or not). Slackware probably provides even less choice than Debian does in many ways, but it's die hard user base are ok with that. It's conservative and most of it's users don't like change for change's sake - so systemd has met opposition there. But most will probably accept it if Volkerding eventually decides to go with it.

Gentoo is of course a special case, but while openrc is the default, it is still based on the same sysvinit daemon. The only real choice for PID1 is either sysvinit+openrc or systemd. But of course, choice is mainly preserved there because everything is compiled from source. There's always more options when you do that...

Dragora uses runit exclusively as far as I know. No real choice there either. I'm not sure whether it uses runit as a full sysvinit replacement or running as a daemon as I've never looked into it that much.

nodir wrote:You can avoid all of it easily (the kernel being a bit of a problem, you have to either use the Hurd or kFreeBSD, kFreeBSD being no big deal, the Hurd is a bit tough). And other software doesn't depend on it (at least not to the same degree, you can work around. Most of the time).
Still i can't comment on the code, of course, just saying.

Or you could just run FreeBSD itself. Seems easier to me. It's not as if FreeBSD is that difficult these days and the package manager has pretty much become Linux like.
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby nodir » February 5th, 2016, 6:18 am

Of course one could use a different OS.
You said there is no choice when it comes to certain software. One example you gave was the kernel.
I said that of course there is a choice (for all your examples, and even for the kernel. For gnu-coreutils there isn't one, as far i can tell, busybox and such comes to mind, but i don't know how far it will take you).
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby cynwulf » February 5th, 2016, 11:51 am

nodir wrote:You said there is no choice when it comes to certain software. One example you gave was the kernel.
I said that of course there is a choice (for all your examples, and even for the kernel. For gnu-coreutils there isn't one, as far i can tell, busybox and such comes to mind, but i don't know how far it will take you).

While there is a choice of kernel, using a non Linux kernel also brings limitations in the software which can be installed and hardware supported and neither of the alternative kernels are stable releases. You know from experience that Hurd is not really a viable alternative for most people - kFreeBSD isn't much better.

While almost all of the packages in the Debian repositories are built for amd64 or i386, the same cannot be said for the more obscure architectures (including kfreebsd and hurd).

This is the same with systemd - choosing not to use it in Debian brings limitations and inconvenience. So many users will probably just accept it for that reason alone.

So while there is a choice of kernels and init systems in Debian few are actually feasible to the average user who just wants a standard working system with a gnome or KDE desktop. This is why systemd opponents believe users are effectively being railroaded towards it. True in a sense. But if the end user doesn't care or doesn't bother to do basic research then that's the same mindset as the windows/apple user and leads to the same conclusion anyway...

Free software was about users taking ownership of their system and knowing exactly what is installed - and even collaborating in development. If we're back to "I just want something that works, I don't want the hassle", etc - then it's gone full circle and in my opinion, windows is the best option for such people. This kind of mindset in fact has makes software like systemd acceptable and thus passable to the vast majority of users.
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby nodir » February 6th, 2016, 6:53 am

For me kFreeBSD worked pretty well (and still works, as far i can tell, haven't bootet it in ages).
I have heard of some people having problems, so they might exist (i don't expect that much of such "experimental" releases, or distros in general).
It was the most odd example, and i spoke of "having had choice" in the past.

As far systemd is concerned i do agree. Of course.
Ripping it out of Debian seems - at least - too much work (and also you don't know what Debian will come up with in the future. All that work might well be for no rnothing in the future).
Similar things might be said about other Linux distros. They work well right now, but if planning to go non-systemd in the long run, a BSD system is probably the better option (I don't use them for other reasons, if all i would care for is avoiding systemd, i would pick one of them).

Free software was about users taking ownership of their system and knowing exactly what is installed - and even collaborating in development. If we're back to "I just want something that works, I don't want the hassle", etc - then it's gone full circle and in my opinion, windows is the best option for such people. This kind of mindset in fact has makes software like systemd acceptable and thus passable to the vast majority of users.

Yup. And no matter where i go, i see that mindset
(fun factor: you will find a lot of that mindset among devuan fanboys .... ).
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby fig1 » February 6th, 2016, 9:27 pm

nodir wrote: (fun factor: you will find a lot of that mindset among devuan fanboys .... ).


no. devuan "fanboys" (users) go to a fair amount of trouble sometimes to get what they want. they probably go to less trouble than they would need to for bsd, (having tried it already) but theyre probably looking for something other than what bsd provides, so it wouldnt make a lot of sense for them to use that.

(of course, since blanket statements about devuan users rarely apply, there are also devuan users that use bsd. but i couldnt tell you why-- its supposed to be a great system, and probably is for those users.)

on the other hand there are plenty of non-devuan-users that claim something doesnt work or isnt ready, just because its official status is unusually modest. in other distros, a year of progress is a year of progress, but while there are people that say "debian stable is for seniors," these days it really matters whether something is called "alpha 4" or "beta."

so on the one hand, you have a distro that isnt ready and allegedly "probably never will be." on the other, its users (so happy with the way its working theyre called "fanboys") are charged with wanting something that "just works?" sometimes its pretty easy to see the deck is stacked. but it doesnt matter how many times you say "use what you want," people are happy to speak for you and invent all kinds of details, even when they speak nonsense.
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby nodir » February 7th, 2016, 8:51 am

fanboy == many words, loads of excitement, little content
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby cynwulf » February 8th, 2016, 2:59 pm

nodir wrote:For me kFreeBSD worked pretty well (and still works, as far i can tell, haven't bootet it in ages).
I have heard of some people having problems, so they might exist (i don't expect that much of such "experimental" releases, or distros in general).
It was the most odd example, and i spoke of "having had choice" in the past.

In the past, to get a decent kFreeBSD system I had to run unstable. I'm pretty sure that's more or less still the case. The last time I tried running it in a vm I had some weird stability issues with mozilla browsers, but can't remember what those were now. Apart from that, I found it ok and liked the idea - it's the kind of thing I expected from Debian.

nodir wrote:As far systemd is concerned i do agree. Of course.
Ripping it out of Debian seems - at least - too much work (and also you don't know what Debian will come up with in the future. All that work might well be for no rnothing in the future).

Unless one just starts from scratch, messy workarounds lie ahead. Slackware seems a good choice for many, I'm just surprised that more of the systemd opponents don't just try it. The main issue for some is compiling from source, but once you get used to that, it's good enough.

nodir wrote:Similar things might be said about other Linux distros. They work well right now, but if planning to go non-systemd in the long run, a BSD system is probably the better option (I don't use them for other reasons, if all i would care for is avoiding systemd, i would pick one of them).

A *BSD derived OS is probably the best option for purely avoiding systemd. There are plenty of reasons why many will not take to them so well however. So I'm not sure the "just use *BSD" as touted by some, is really valid advice for a Linux user. I use OpenBSD as my main OS and have used the other three major *BSD systems as well in the past, but wouldn't suggest or recommend any of these to a Linux user. My philosophy is: If you like it, use it, seek it out for yourself, try it and if you don't like it, use something else. If someone is using a *BSD just to avoid systemd, they're probably using it for all the wrong reasons.

If someone is willing to give it a try however, I suggest FreeBSD or one of the easy desktop oriented derivatives such as PC-BSD or GhostBSD.

Even though OpenBSD is easy enough to get installed, as with NetBSD, it's not for total newcomers. OpenBSD is also security focused, which means that it might not be the best system for pure desktop performance. There is also no nvidia graphics support of any kind except for the old and obsolete nv driver. A newcomer is only going to find frustration and the sense that (to paraphrase JohnDeere in the other phread), that they're encountering "Linux -10 years of development". (even though most packages in OpenBSD are far more up to date than Debian stable and they put out a new release every 6 months). Also if someone absolutely must have adobe flash, then forget about OpenBSD.
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby cynwulf » May 10th, 2016, 8:07 pm

A throwback to the good old days of forum revolts...?

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=128162

If he gets banned, well you know the script... :lol:

//edit: by the way systemd and devuan discussion is allowed here, expect moderate heckling though, as opposed to moderation...
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby nodir » May 12th, 2016, 6:34 pm

No need to ban him, he deleted his account already :-)
The fun part is that the according moderator couldn't even explain why he closed the thread
First he said: cause this is not the devuan forum. When being told that the closed thread wasn't about devuan, he changed his mind and said: Well, this is not the forum to discuss other operating systems.
Not having in mind that you can also use debian without systemd ...
Oh my.

I for one don't care that much. It is a bit of a pity, but i neither understand most of the questions, the answers are usually half wrong too (assuming they don't point you to google or the manpage).
It is funny they piss of anyone who knows a wee bit and then complain that the quality of the forum is lousy (IRC isn't much better, whenever i check, btw. Debian community sure has gone south).


-
fooled around a a bit with vectorlinux and downloaded dragonfly-BSD. Might be i will give devuan a try ( fsmithred did an unofficial live-CD of it) or will go back to Gentoo (but using Funtoo this time, so i can avoid the kernel fiddling). btw, this thread seems to be about systemd.
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Re: Systemd discussion

Postby cynwulf » May 12th, 2016, 9:17 pm

There's not much fun in forums these days. mods should be part of the community, not some killjoy traffic warden type character who is just out to lay down the law and issue penalties. if it gets to the stage where it's no fun and just some kind of "duty" or it's degenerated to "them and us", you're probably fucked already and it's time to bail out and do something else. don't really understand the connection to the "job" myself... if someone is just closing threads out of personal annoyance/preference or even just getting emotional, it's probably time to take a break. lose the connection with the members and you're just there under sufferance and then - what's the point...?

DragonFly is pretty good.
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