The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby FretfulMother » June 25th, 2014, 8:49 pm

Socialism as is practiced here has everything to do with getting something for nothing

Plain and simple: No.

Socialism means to put the means of production (Produktionskräfte) in the hands of the people who produce (Produktivkräfte). Well: Socialism means to first put them in the hand of the state to finally put them in the hand of the people once there is wordwide socialism and no state is needed anymore. (which would be communism. Socialism is the temporary situation _before communism).

And if you say "here" i assume you mean the USA. And to say that "socialism is practiced in the USA" is ... well: I never heard that before, nor would have thought it myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
(People often think they are not allowed to own anything in a socialist country. That is nonsense too. They are not allowed to own means of productions. Without the onwership of those no one will be able to become superrich, of course. But who with a sane mind would want that anyway? Or miss the chance to get it? You can only spend a certain amount of money anyway and we all leave this world with only one shirt).
You can have a private definition of what you think socialism is about, but that will make it hard to talk with others (For me a chair is something i use to cut my bread with, but i don't tell others, cause they might think i am mad).
Nor do I wish to get into a fight

Nah, just chatting. Cause, like you said, it doesn't make a difference what you think or what i think anyway.
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby golinux » June 25th, 2014, 9:18 pm

Starting to sound like the good ol' days . . . :lol:
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby JohnDeere630 » June 25th, 2014, 10:04 pm

FretfulMother wrote:
Socialism as is practiced here has everything to do with getting something for nothing

Plain and simple: No.

Socialism means to put the means of production (Produktionskräfte) in the hands of the people who produce (Produktivkräfte). Well: Socialism means to first put them in the hand of the state to finally put them in the hand of the people once there is wordwide socialism and no state is needed anymore. (which would be communism. Socialism is the temporary situation _before communism).

And if you say "here" i assume you mean the USA. And to say that "socialism is practiced in the USA" is ... well: I never heard that before, nor would have thought it myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
(People often think they are not allowed to own anything in a socialist country. That is nonsense too. They are not allowed to own means of productions. Without the onwership of those no one will be able to become superrich, of course. But who with a sane mind would want that anyway? Or miss the chance to get it? You can only spend a certain amount of money anyway and we all leave this world with only one shirt).
You can have a private definition of what you think socialism is about, but that will make it hard to talk with others (For me a chair is something i use to cut my bread with, but i don't tell others, cause they might think i am mad).
Nor do I wish to get into a fight

Nah, just chatting. Cause, like you said, it doesn't make a difference what you think or what i think anyway.



Well, it seems we have vastly different views of socialism...so be it. Here in the US, it is a negative label applied (apparently incorrectly) to people who think the gov't has the right to take from anyone with "more", and give it to those with "less". What you are talking about, which may very well be the "correct" definition of socialism is a different kettle of fish. I was not aware that socialism was just the first step to communism, but I am not surprised, as communism seems to be what our elites are striving for, or more correctly, a version of crony communism where their wealth and power are unchanged, they own and control everything, and we are reduced to the state of serfs. Fortunately, there is a vast gulf between what they want, and what they are actually able to do.

@golinux...nah, no fight left in this old carcass; just participating in a friendly debate. :D
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » June 26th, 2014, 5:24 am

FretfulMother wrote:And, like said above, you only compare it with the most rich capitalistic systems. + most socialist systems were faced with military aggression by the West (not Russia, of course, they wouldn't dare that.

Actually, Russia was the victim of great aggression, but not by direct militarily means. The Cold War was mostly economic warfare. After the Second Great War the US had a strong economy and lots of money to throw around. They gave lots of it to countries in western Europe for rebuilding. On the other side, the Russians had to help rebuild the countries under their control, while rebuilding their own. The whole time the American government continually increased weapon production to fill imaginary gaps (the bomber gap, missile gap, etc.), forcing the Russians to keep pace and waste resources on weapons instead of strengthening the economy. The economic warfare ended with a NATO victory.

JohnDeere630 wrote: Here in the US, it is a negative label
Not a surprise, since socialism is a threat to the ruling class, especially in a place like the U.S., where capitalist exploitation, not capitalism, is the "American way." In other words, the masses have been indoctrinated to view socialism as a thing of evil, and believe they live in a perfect society free of that evil. They help the aristocracy exploit them. On a positive not, the American aristocracy has to be given credit for doing a wonderful job of indoctrination. They have accomplished a level of mind control overtly oppressive regimes can only dream about. Shows how subtle propaganda is much more effective than the hammer and anvil approach.

golinux wrote:Starting to sound like the good ol' days . . . :lol:
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby dilberts_left_nut » June 26th, 2014, 6:51 am

FretfulMother wrote:And if you say "here" i assume you mean the USA. And to say that "socialism is practiced in the USA" is ... well: I never heard that before, nor would have thought it myself.

They do indeed, but only for the rich (bank bailout etc.), the poor get capitalism :)
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby cynwulf » June 26th, 2014, 10:04 am

JohnDeere630 wrote:Well, it seems we have vastly different views of socialism...so be it. Here in the US, it is a negative label applied (apparently incorrectly) to people who think the gov't has the right to take from anyone with "more", and give it to those with "less".

This is the propaganda which has been spewed by the US administration/ruling class since the Cold War era. i.e. that socialism is simply about taking money from hard working people and giving it to spongers and parasites. Where I live this is going on all the time - and we are certainly not living under socialism.

There is actually no place for parasites - of any kind, whether rich or poor - in a socialist system. You can pretty much read any of the classic socialist literature and find no reference this - to the contrary, everyone must do their part and their cannot be freeloaders. As soon as you have freeloaders at any level, the system will collapse - just a matter of time. Obviously there are always going to be exceptions (disabled, elderly, mentally ill, etc).

Like nadir says the "welfare state" is really a tool of the capitalist system. The principle is simple - you have a lot of surplus people with no work (probably due to globalisation, poor standards of education, etc), so you subsidise them via the tax payer. In world war 1 these were the "heroes" who died in the trenches in their millions - prior to the outbreak of war they were also jobless. In this day and age they are the "parasites". The government hands them their pay cheques with one hand and stabs them in the back usually via the media with the other - that's part of the deal: get the money, but suffer social isolation and humiliation for it. This of course diverts the masses attention away from the failings of government and towards minority groups such as immigrants and the unemployed.

The alternative to this is a lot of angry unemployed people who could do a lot of damage - perhaps bring down a government.
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby JohnDeere630 » June 27th, 2014, 1:39 am

Cynwulf, what you say does make sense, and explains a lot of what we see both in the US and UK. DLN makes a valid point also, that we all know; and that is that the biggest parasites of all are the "too big to fail" banks/corporations. For every dollar spent on the welfare class, the corporate welfare leeches receive 100. That really sucks. Crony capitalism at it's best (worst?); if their insanely reckless gambles pay off, they reap the reward, if they fail, the taxpayer bails them out; rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Are there any countries that actually have true socialist systems in place? Sweden, perhaps? If they are, I wonder how they compare, standard-of-living wise.....
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby FretfulMother » June 27th, 2014, 3:16 pm

JohnDeere630 wrote:
Are there any countries that actually have true socialist systems in place? Sweden, perhaps? If they are, I wonder how they compare, standard-of-living wise.....

In the past i have once read (but never cared to check it) that all scandinavian countries (not sure about Finland, which doesn't belong to Scandinavia) are kind of a middle way between socialism ( a handholding state, good welfare systems, a strong state) and capitalism (which is still was).
Standard-of-living there is said to be rather very good (though everything is rather expensive too, but if you earn a lot, it doesn't matter much). You will like that ( :-) ): they got outstanding high taxes (while European taxes for private people are generally way higher than for US people). And with that i can make a good point: I wouldn't focus too much on taxes, cause they don't say that much if you live good or not (by taxes are paid a lot of very usefull things. Police, Military, Schools, Streets, cultural centres, and what not). There just was a poll, and Danish people (_with very high taxes) are very happy with their life (compared with others and according to what they say).

And, on another note, taxes and social security contribution (for retirement, healthcare, unemployment insurances, etc) are two different things (you have to pay both, but they are separated from each other. So, at least in Germany, getting rid of the social system would help you no shit in getting rid of taxes (au contraire, one would probably have to pay higher taxes as more police and military, more prisons, etc, will be needed)

A joke is in my mind: Hasn't there been no "state" in northern America not that long ago? It doesn't look as if getting rid of the state would be the best idea (cause others will arrive, take over the land and create a state). iow: i wouldn't take the idea of "the evil state who only does bad" too far (the state does a lot of good things, though most of those one has not in mind, cause they are, rather seem to be, simply there).

One will have to translate that to proper English oneself. I am tired like a dog.
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby FretfulMother » June 27th, 2014, 3:24 pm

In the meantime there is a "scandal" in Germany. The people from a third world country who sew for a Germany company (Primark or similar) sewed cries for help into the clothes. Explaining in short words the conditions they work and live under.
It is heartbreaking.

If ever someone asks me if the money shalll be taken away from the oligarchs and given to those people, then my clear answer is yes. If violence is needed, then with violence.
If i shall give arguments why to "steal" the money from the oligarchs, then i got none. Probably for the same reason it is now taken from working people (Why do they work at all? I got no idea).

Cuba is a socialist system, no?
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Re: The Hazing Thread - introduce yourself *here*

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » June 28th, 2014, 1:47 am

Things may have changed, and probably have, but twenty years ago Sweden had the world's highest standard of living (according to whatever statistics the people who measure such things decide to use). They achieved it with a combination of capitalism and socialism, but the downside was a tax rate of 2/3rds. :shock: That is why the few entertainers who became successful moved to other parts of Europe. I have no idea how much things have changed since then.
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