My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 5th, 2018, 10:47 am

cynwulf wrote:The reality of dairy farming is very different (it might put you off your morning milk).
I am well aware of how the agri-industry operates. Most people would be horrified at the conditions of chickens live in to provide Euro-Americans cheap eggs. They would be equally horrified at the treatment of meat cattle and swine fair a little better. Plants do not suffer, but the environment does. Irrigation in arid climates raise the salt table. When it reaches the surface, nothing will grow. (Which is what many researchers believe caused the end of the world's first state-level society in Mesopotamia.) Natural wetlands are destroyed in order to make the cranberry juice so many like to drink. Et cetera ad nauseum. If meat, milk and eggs are replaced with plants, more plants will be grown and harvested, which means even more environmental damage.

The only way to solve the problems is to educate people about the food they eat. Governments will not educate the people though, since they are the same social class as the corporations. Activists need to focus on (trying) to education people so the masses will (hopefully) put pressure on the powers-that-be. They would be unlikely to succeed, but it would be worth the effort. Being militant only hurts their cause.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 5th, 2018, 11:24 am

nodir wrote:In Germany 3 million animals get slaughtered every day.
And, as said, 1/3 of the pigs go right to the rubbish dump
(i guess mainly the latter may count well as "absolutely nothing").

If we look at the bigger picture of "waste" for a moment - we have supermarkets who throw out a large percentage of stock and simply "cost in" the wastage and include it in the inflated prices they charge. They can do this due to buying power - the power to squeeze suppliers and make or break them, to increase their profit margins. I touched on this earlier with the reference to the US based fast food industry, but what many are oblivious to is that there are numerous industry specific cartels at almost every level of the supply chain.

nodir wrote:Another subject: No matter if you are vegan, vegetarian or if you eat anything you get served:
What you eat is utter crap, poisoned, low on whatever you hope to find in it (vitamins, minerals, etc), tastes like shit, and so on.
If you got the money, you could go for organic (which is slightly better, as long it's not the crap they sell as organic in the supermarket).
Or grow it yourself. Back to the stoneage. What a wonderful life.

I think of bell peppers (capsicum) growing in sheds with UV light, 10 foot plus tall vines, with the roots stuck in a sponge and pipes feeding them liquid fertiliser - would probably be an eye opener for some.

Who can say what's in the fertiliser? But probably there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, i.e. "technology", a marvel, "progress", whatever... after accelerated ethylene gas ripening, then picking and sorting ("ugly fruits" being separated to be sold more cheaply or to wholesale), it's straight into their plastic bags and off to the supermarket - with a considerably large percentage going in the bin of course.

I wish I could grow my own stuff - I live in a flat - but when I was a kid, we grew lots of carrots, potatoes, cabbages, courgettes, onions - quite a lot of stuff in fact. The soil wasn't great, but still far better than the supermarket crap.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby debil » December 5th, 2018, 12:51 pm

cynwulf wrote:
debil wrote:While I appreciate the analogy, the connection to animal farming is slim. Maybe if we're talking about them both being commodities. What I'm seeing in meat and dairy production is basically Holocaust 2.0. The automobile industry doesn't explicitly *need* suffering and killing of billions of beings in order to function.

I have to respectfully disagree, the automobile causes the deaths of around 1 million people worldwide, untold suffering, not to mention the impact on health and the environment as a whole (contribution to global warming). How many animals have died or been maimed on the roads in a given country every year for absolutely nothing? Habitats have been destroyed to build motorways. The pollution from burning fossil fuels finds its way into water courses. All of this destruction and death is seemingly perfectly acceptable - necessary in fact to the survival of that industry.

They're both horrendous industries, I give you that, but the continuous animal massacre around us is an issue closer to my heart.

cynwulf wrote:Whether you find the analogy relevant or not - the relevant part is that reaching the driver, to raise awareness of the real problem will not be achieved by that type of "direct protest". Which has been my point all along - what is that kind of protest going to achieve?

Yeah, I was hoping we'd gotten over that "militant vegan activist group" thing already :D I understand their motives but don't find the act itself creating any positive feedback among the people. So, not a good strategy. As I've already said, being a good example oneself and sharing information when asked is much better way to raise awareness to the cause.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 5th, 2018, 3:31 pm

I wish I could grow my own stuff - I live in a flat - but when I was a kid, we grew lots of carrots, potatoes, cabbages, courgettes, onions - quite a lot of stuff in fact. The soil wasn't great, but still far better than the supermarket crap.

I only wish i had enough money to go full organic (though i had my own garden a couple of years ago. At the end of the day it was just as expensive as buying in an organic store, but it sure was a bit of fun too.

I am open to create a hippie commune though. Say in Scandinavia or Scottland. But be warned: i am more in theory, real work is nothing i really appreciate
( i lived in such a place a while ago. Well, as said above, at the end of the day we all are part of the system, and if you try to do something alternative, you will soon figure out that you yourself are part of the problem ... Was fun anyway, even it perhaps it was only for being outside day in and out, full year).

Everything i say may as well be said by a skate video, and usually much better than i could: "88 acres of anarchy".
For me and now skateparks and communities are the best option right now, to somehow ignore the system as far possible (mind you, the system which keeps me alive, for what reason ever, i would not know).
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby namibed » December 6th, 2018, 9:10 am

So much new text, I should log on more often! I had to make a list of all the points I want to reply to...

Firstly, I always feel a little uncomfortable when people bring the old class paradigm into the discussion, the good ol' "Us vs Them" or "those at the top mistreat those at the bottom". It still holds some truth, but more often this is a self-perpetuating machine.
We are the System.
Whenever I try to find out who's responsible, I end up on another empty corridor. I call it kafkaesque.

cynwulf wrote: Only about 1% of the UK population were Vegan in 2016

Yes, but how many more have reduced their meat consumption? Or are at least willing to pay higher prices for meat from happy, healthy animals?
The world does not need an "either 0 or 100" sort of change. we need to reduce, not avoid completely.
Applies to many things IMO. Cars, cigarettes, new electronic gadgets...

cynwulf wrote: But people turn a blind eye to the ethical problems surrounding the supply of the things which they enjoy, whether it be sports shoes, petrol, beef, coffee or wine...

Well, let me be devil's advocate here: almost ALL products are ethically problematic. One needs to make choices, one cannot always stay aware of everything.
I tend to make things a habit and stick with it, so I don't have to reason with myself (ethics vs. budget) everytime I go shopping. Example: I try not to buy any food that's from beyond the EU except bananas. That's a rule I can stick to always.
But things like buying clothes are more difficult. In my view, there's no acceptable compromise there. All too often I end up at H&M because I simply do not know where to get better clothes (for a reasonable price). I live in a land of malls.

Randicus Draco Albus wrote: Animals are made to suffer because it is convenient for the industry.

Crucial point. Be it animals' horrible living and slaughtering conditions, clothes produced by kids in sweatshops, cars guzzling ever more instead of less, whatever: It all comes down to increasing profit margins and ultimately simple greed.
Both on the consumer and the "upperclass industrialist" side of things.

I think we need better education to break the vicious circle of ever more profit and always needing to be Nr. 1 in some way.
I think it is happening, slowly.

cynwulf wrote: I think of bell peppers (capsicum) growing in sheds with UV light, 10 foot plus tall vines, with the roots stuck in a sponge and pipes feeding them liquid fertiliser - would probably be an eye opener for some.

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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 6th, 2018, 9:51 am

The consumer has slightly less power than the industry though.

And the ones who insist on the consumer using his (imaginary) power to make changes are the very same which made a huge amount of the population so poor, they hardly make it through the month. You have to eat what you get from soup kitchen (which, for the bigger part, is meat and bread, at least here).
(that is: the green party).

iow: moralism? No thanks. I am done with it.
It is a problem which can only be solved by according laws (and that probably means: by a system change). If anywhere, then the theory of the market has failed here.

-
with the rest i seem to agree.
say that is what i mean with being done with moralism (less meat would be quite a change, no need for a totalitarian solution. As far i can tell).
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » December 6th, 2018, 12:05 pm

namibed wrote:Firstly, I always feel a little uncomfortable when people bring the old class paradigm into the discussion, the good ol' "Us vs Them" or "those at the top mistreat those at the bottom". It still holds some truth, but more often this is a self-perpetuating machine.

The truth can indeed be uncomfortable. The elites see the traditional working class as "human resources" and "consumers" - in a word, the "proletariat". The only effective protest of the proletariat is to withdraw their labour.

There are those with millions or billions to to their name, with multiple global business interests, portfolios of property and land ownership and the power to influence governments and there are those earning what is for the former, the price of their weekly champagne. "Us vs Them" very much exists in the world I live in at least.
namibed wrote:We are the System.

Some of us can keep telling ourselves that, however history seems to say otherwise.... "we" may be the [expendable] cogs in the system, but that's about it.
namibed wrote:Yes, but how many more have reduced their meat consumption? Or are at least willing to pay higher prices for meat from happy, healthy animals?

I've bought organic and free range, but have no idea if the animal is happy/healthy. I can only take their word for it... ultimately: do you, as the "consumer", trust business?
namibed wrote:The world does not need an "either 0 or 100" sort of change. we need to reduce, not avoid completely.

I don't know who the "we" is or what "world" we're talking about. You have to consider that a large proportion of the world's population live in poverty - many don't have the choice of organic, veganism, whatever - that choice is made for them, one way or the other. They either eat or they die. They eat meat if it's there or they starve - but most can't afford it (unless it's locally sourced fish or foul).

If you mean that the better off can actually freely decide what to eat and spend time even thinking about that and can choose to subsist on the latest fashionable "super foods" and grains (most likely imported), then that's probably true...
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby debil » December 6th, 2018, 3:58 pm

cynwulf wrote:
namibed wrote:Yes, but how many more have reduced their meat consumption? Or are at least willing to pay higher prices for meat from happy, healthy animals?

I've bought organic and free range, but have no idea if the animal is happy/healthy. I can only take their word for it... ultimately: do you, as the "consumer", trust business?

Mostly it's just marketing, nice sounding words and nice looking images. I guess, in theory, it's a step to better direction but animals still get killed way before their natural time in unnatural conditions.

cynwulf wrote:
namibed wrote:The world does not need an "either 0 or 100" sort of change. we need to reduce, not avoid completely.

I don't know who the "we" is or what "world" we're talking about. You have to consider that a large proportion of the world's population live in poverty - many don't have the choice of organic, veganism, whatever - that choice is made for them, one way or the other. They either eat or they die. They eat meat if it's there or they starve - but most can't afford it (unless it's locally sourced fish or foul).

If you mean that the better off can actually freely decide what to eat and spend time even thinking about that and can choose to subsist on the latest fashionable "super foods" and grains (most likely imported), then that's probably true...

Yup. That's why we - the ones living in wealthy countries - have the responsibility to make those choices. And not do nothing because the people in poverty can't make those choices.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » December 6th, 2018, 4:57 pm

At least in Germany some of the certificates for "organic" take it very serious when it comes to it assign that certificate to a producer. I think Demeter (for sure) and Bioland.
As said before: if you buy stuff certificated as organic by EU-norm, what you get in the supermarket, you might just as well buy conventional food.
I think in other countries it is or might be different. But i think you could check the according certificates too (and hope that one of them is as fanatic as Demeter).

Rule of thumb: it should taste different. Way different.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby namibed » December 8th, 2018, 9:41 am

nodir wrote:At least in Germany some of the certificates for "organic" take it very serious when it comes to it assign that certificate to a producer. I think Demeter (for sure) and Bioland.
As said before: if you buy stuff certificated as organic by EU-norm, what you get in the supermarket, you might just as well buy conventional food.
I think in other countries it is or might be different. But i think you could check the according certificates too (and hope that one of them is as fanatic as Demeter).

i still remember when they brought in the EU regulations, and the outcry it caused in people who'd already been buying organic, in germany.
now, in my new home finland, people don't even know this. they don't understand that there's degrees of organic. and i mean the people eating it, not the average ignorant.
yet another thing that people see as either/or, when in reality it's a matter of degrees.
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