My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Talk about anything you feel like talking about. Pull up a soapbox and pontificate to your heart's content. May contain some adult humour or otherwise objectionable content (NSFW). No warez, pr0n or illegal stuff.

Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » October 10th, 2018, 5:13 pm

You might say the same about how people live in so called communist countries before and after.
And then look at the way eastern europe countries act right now. Looks as if fascism is very close.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » October 10th, 2018, 5:15 pm

And who the feck did claim that liberalism, politically and enonomically was not a step forward?
Marx sure didn't. That was also one of his main points.
Jesus.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby Hallvor » October 10th, 2018, 8:23 pm

Oh well, I always have the attitude that I might have something to learn from others, and I am by no means an expert of Marx, so feel free to correct me.

And who the feck did claim that liberalism, politically and enonomically was not a step forward?
Marx sure didn't. That was also one of his main points.


Let me quote Marx himself from the Communist Manifesto (1848):

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebeians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones.

Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other — Bourgeoisie and Proletariat.


So, in Marx' own words, society had a more complicated order in the past, but now (in 1848) society was more transparently antagonistic than ever. After all, even slaves and serfs could to a certain extent count on the support of their masters and feudal lords, and there was even some sort of vertical patriarchical loyalty in the medieval workshops. Not so much in the new factories.

I can not see Marx stating that economical and political liberalism (the primary ideology of the burgeoisie) amounted to progress anywhere, only that old sorts of oppression were replaced by new ones. If not, why promote a (violent) revolution against the liberal burgeoisie instead of incremental change?

Feel free to enlighten me.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » October 10th, 2018, 8:50 pm

We will not get that sorted here, i for sure not in english, Marx is very German when it comes to his language too, and we won't convince each other anyway.
One thing though: The manifest is one thing he wrote, and by far the most easy one. It is what it is named: a manifest.
No matter how you look at it any deeper: I doubt that anyone will not see that Marx is deep down in what some call enlightenment. The one thing i already said: He refers to the classical enonomic theories. The other part being Hegel. I for one doubt that it is possible to understand Marx without really knowing Hegel (all the terms he uses, german is "Begriff", and that is a damn different thing than a term. For Hegel and for Marx, come from Hegel).

Does any of that matter? Not really. The western system is in the middle of a crash. You and i are in the happy position to live in places where it is still ok. Very soon we will have to discuss very different problems. I really wish i am wrong. But if i look at southern europe (enonomically) and eastern europe (ideology) and the rise of the far right in most western europe countries too ...
After the last big bang he world had a new leader (the USA). After the next big bang it will probably be China. Assuming there still will be humans.
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Re: CoC

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » October 10th, 2018, 9:19 pm

^ Brilliant post nodir, you are sorely missed over at fdn, that's for sure.

Back to the circus...
cynwulf wrote:The term "Nutcase" - is offensive, especially to people with mental health issues.

*shrugs* Well I suppose I'll just have to blame it on my own mental health issues then, although they are depressive rather than delusional in nature.

cynwulf wrote:as the "CoC" shit doesn't apply to you

Nope, nor anyone else in this thread.

cynwulf wrote:Also ref "asshole", no need for the apology

No, the apology was genuine.

You are obviously not an asshole at all, you seem to be a decent and reasonable person (unlike me).

cynwulf wrote:In doing so you have actually proven the point that it can be abused, misconstrued, distorted, etc

Yes, and that's the point, isn't it?

The CoC is just a statement of intent, and perhaps a sop to the activists, because after all the power is still held by the project maintainers, just as before.

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:When did open source become communist?

Don't worry Randicus, that was just a lazy attempt to wind up my tractor-loving friend — I had hoped to plant the seed of fear in xyrs heart that the local NRA chapter might revoke xyrs membership if they find xe is running a communist operating system :twisted:

FWIW I would agree with cynwulf's cogent analysis in respect of *nix development.

Hallvor wrote:Free software is about freedom, something Communist[1] countries have been very poor at implementing.

You will have to forgive me for being loose with the terminology (in aid of the aforementioned wind up), my favoured doctrine would be more accurately described as communist anarchism and I would like to take the opportunity to align myself with Naom Chomsky:
If the left is understood to include ‘Bolshevism,’ then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism.

I used to be a Marxist in my radical youth and I seem to remember that Marx always insisted that his version of communism would only work on a global scale and could not co-exist with capitalism, and sure enough the West "won" by forcing the Eastern Bloc to spend so much on military defences that their citizens starved and suffered.

golinux wrote:http://vhemt.org/

Love that site!

V. funny cartoon also, thanks for that.
Oh, wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in ’t!
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » October 10th, 2018, 9:45 pm

used to be a Marxist in my radical youth and I seem to remember that Marx always insisted that his version of communism would only work on a global scale and could not co-exist with capitalism, and sure enough the West "won" by forcing the Eastern Bloc to spend so much on military defences that their citizens starved and suffered.

Just a side note, as i hear "the west won" all the time. Regarding the USSR: sure. But there still is China. Last time i checked 1300 million of people. If i am not wrong that is a bit more than US and Europe together (perhaps even close to the double amount. I am not sure if Europe is 500 million of people, or if that is only the EU).
And then they speak about history, which has shown ...
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Re: CoC

Postby cynwulf » October 11th, 2018, 8:08 am

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:*shrugs* Well I suppose I'll just have to blame it on my own mental health issues then, although they are depressive rather than delusional in nature.

More weasel words...

Ok, so it's ok for you to grill me earlier in the thread as to whether I find "simulated physical abuse" acceptable or not... and it's OK for you to make flippant comments about mental health issues (referring to golinux and I as "Nutcases") and also dismiss anyone and everyone who disagrees with the CoC as tin foil hat wearers and conspiracy theorists...
cynwulf wrote:Nope, nor anyone else in this thread.

Nor on this forum... but that's not the point. You are the proponent of said CoC, yet it's "rules" are for others...? Clearly this is about "policing the minority"? (i.e. not you)

cynwulf wrote:Yes, and that's the point, isn't it?

Yes... that's the point almost everyone has been making since the start of the thread, which you have been attempting to refute...

cynwulf wrote:The CoC is just a statement of intent, and perhaps a sop to the activists, because after all the power is still held by the project maintainers, just as before.

Well, no. The CoC is more of a "set of rules", (a code of conduct) which can and most likely will, be used by the project maintainers and against the project maintainers and others in various ways. The CoC even details what should be done with regards to violations... By implementing the Coc and then flouting it, the "project maintainers" will be an even bigger target for these activists. If you believe the CoC will be toothless and purely token, you're either being very naive or disingenuous... especially with regards to a project with such relevance, exposure and entangled interests.

Many of the proponents of the "claptrap" JD refers to are, when all is said and done, just useful idiots. They serve a political end, they may believe in whatever ideology they subscribe to, they may be hypocrites - ultimately it doesn't matter.

Those funding free software, bankrolling the various foundations, paying developers and building their products around the kernel are not especially bothered by the CoC. In "corporate space" of box ticking and paying lip service to "diversity", the CoC is nothing special at all. In the "professional" setting - rules are made within an organisation, but with the understanding that a certain privileged few are not really the targets of said rules and don't have to abide by them, they simply have to ensure that they're not observed flouting them - in other words "do as I say, not as I do".

FOSS developers however who have enjoyed freedom of speech and expression for decades, have everything to worry about.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby cynwulf » October 11th, 2018, 8:42 am

nodir wrote:If you look at communism in theory, than it's not that far from how fs projects do it (also rather in theory, as we know now).

It's important to recognise that not all free software is developed for the same reasons. OK you could pick on a handful of projects, you would no doubt find plenty of "politically charged" projects, you would find projects which are developed in a certain way, with certain rules - perhaps with some form of democratic selection of a project leader or members of a technical committee...

Ironically, you will find more than enough diversity in FOSS - there is something for everyone and no single project needs "fixing" or some kind of agenda being forced upon it by misguided activists.

But then I was referring to the whole "ecosystem" rather than a single project. If you look at that, you will find a whole plethora of licences, private hobbyist developers, corporate backed developers, privately funded projects, dictatorships of one man, meritocracies, where basically the most talented developers lead the projects and make the decisions and the list goes on.

There are is also a rough three way divide between "GNU"/"Stallmanist", "open source" and "permissive". All have different alignments, priorities, goals and ideas - yet all of these coexist within the same operating systems, including Linux distributions.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby nodir » October 11th, 2018, 8:16 pm

You omitted the next sentence, which reveals my intention:
If you look at communism in theory, than it's not that far from how fs projects do it (also rather in theory, as we know now).
But then: one of Marx's version of communism main points was also not that far from the free market in theory.

It is a bit snooty if i blame him for that. Like everyone else big parts of what one thinks is due to the historical situation you live in (another thing we have learned from ... guess who? ).

-
As far the rest is concerned: i don't think much about free software or linux or such. LIke already stated. The best times are over, that is for sure (might relate to mobiles and the way communication has changed due to them). Now and then i try to get the head in a program, but that's about it. Else i use it to chat.
Even inside of each project, the bigger ones for sure, you will find diversity. Not sure why that makes a change though. If we don't want to generalize we will have to stop talking altogether.
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Re: My Awesome Adventure (CoC debate)

Postby namibed » October 12th, 2018, 5:17 am

it's been a while since i posted here.
but i read all 169 posts so far.
it has been an edifying experience.
many people, when gauded, reverted to the kind of trashy comments that people who defend Coraline's CoC like to quote as an example.
I am glad that others kept their heads on and distanced themselves form that "temptation". and continuously try keeping up a reasonable discussion.
most notably cynwulf, although i could've done with a few expletives less.

it's interesting that nobody commented on my one attempt to make the debate more personal; it is typical for discussions both on- and offline that that doesn't fly: it's so much safer to enrage oneself in a distanced, non-personal manner.

a few facts & thoughts follow.
__________________________________________________________________________

i linked Torvald's email published by the BBC before.
I really like what he says there, all of it really.
This article has been misquoted at least once in this thread, so please read it all.

(And as always, I'd love to see some more recent development on this matter)
__________________________________________________________________________

So we've seen a few attacks (*) against more-or-less prominent FOSS contributors, based on some statement they made that was supposed to be insulting, discriminating etc.
I have seen the root of these claims in 2 cases, and both were just an expression of opinion. opinions i might not agree with, but just that. not discriminating, not insulting (**), just stating a different opinion, one that is contrary to what "gender activists" (***) want to make us believe is the new norm.
I have seen how the discussion developed in a few more cases, and the person first responding (most responsible?) was unyielding, but very reasonable, and again, NOT insulting or discriminating.
BUT the discussion that followed attracted a lot of discriminating, sexist, insulting, derogatory and plain disgusting commentary.
It is sad, and I'd like to slap those people in the face for various reasons.
So I wonder: shouldn't "gender activists" or more generally "social justice warriors" (***) concentrate on the real arseholes?
no, i guess it makes a bigger splash if you attack more prominent figures.
it might even be a deliberate tactic to raise issues like these knowing that it will attract the real trolls like shit attracts flies and use that to your advantage.

(*) yes, attacks. first demand to step back, then, when demands aren't met, blame the whole community. deliberately create disruption of the worst kind.
(**) but then, these terms have become so expandable recently...
(***) i really don't know how to call them. for the record, no insult is intended, i just need a usable umbrella term.
____________________________________________________________________________

Now about Head_on_a_Stick.
I have known him (sic - see the next link) since crunchbang forums, where he joined early 2014.
As you can see, helpful and fairly knowledgeable right from the start.
It saddens me to see an intelligent person sink so low.
He quickly became a mod. TBH, i was always wary of him. I smelled zealotry.
In 2015 he switched to bunsenlabs forums like many of us, and continued modding and even dabbling in BL development.
Fairly recently he dropped out of BL - completely. no forums, no development.
From then onwards his main output has been FDN, i believe.
Looking at this thread, I agree with his own assessment: he should stick to the technical topics.
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