adoption takes a while, when it happens

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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby cynwulf » November 23rd, 2015, 12:15 pm

I see CUPS is discussed on the mailing list only recently. There are numerous operating systems running CUPS without systemd, yet the Devuan mailing list discussion on this subject consists of people using unsigned 3rd party repositories and talking about installing older packages.

LFS shows that CUPS does not need systemd and how to build without it. So yes I do have to wonder about the progress and almost 1 year on people still talking about libsystemd

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/vi ... /cups.html
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby fsmithred » November 23rd, 2015, 2:55 pm

Netman builds just fine, and it works, too. I don't know what specific problems people are having with building it. It did take me a few tries to get all the build deps installed, but once that was done, the whole process of downloading the latest build and compiling it only takes a couple of minutes.

If you want to try it without going to all the trouble to install build deps and compile it, there are, get ready for it... pre-made .deb packages.

If someone is claiming that there are 500 active developers, then I agree that it sounds dubious. I can't imagine who among the actual developers would say such a thing. Maybe they meant 500 members on the mailing list? I think the real number is closer to half a dozen, and they have day jobs to maintain. Most of what they've done so far is work on the infrastructure (the build system). Now, if RedHat, IBM, HP or some other backer wants to supply some funding, then there could be full-timers, and things would happen faster.

Latest word is that beta is coming very soon, and there are already at least three downstream distros using devuan repos - gnuinos, exegnulinux and refracta.
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby hjkdadg » November 23rd, 2015, 9:27 pm

fsmithred wrote:If someone is claiming that there are 500 active developers, then I agree that it sounds dubious. I can't imagine who among the actual developers would say such a thing. Maybe they meant 500 members on the mailing list? I think the real number is closer to half a dozen, and they have day jobs to maintain.


They did state so at the presentation at the OpenNebula Conf: https://youtu.be/uEyUVmdKIEI?t=8m24s
Jaromil, one of the three or four non-anonymous people known to be behind Devuan, is also present and talking; he's the guy standing on the right.

The mailing list has 570 members according to them.

Most of what they've done so far is work on the infrastructure (the build system). Now, if RedHat, IBM, HP or some other backer wants to supply some funding, then there could be full-timers, and things would happen faster.


Well, they said the infrastructure was more or less ready last year: "This is the most recent achievement on infrastructure development: last night the first devuan-baseconf package was built correctly through our continuous integration infrastructure, pulling directly from our source repository." See https://devuan.org/newsletter_22dec.html

I'm not really sure what has happened since then?

Note that other derivates managed to actually get their infrastructure working in much shorter time, including rebuilding *all* Debian packages from source. Something the Devuan people say they might eventually do... And they had less money and about equal or smaller number or people working on it (less than 6).
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby nodir » November 24th, 2015, 9:30 am

hjkdadg wrote:
I'm not really sure what has happened since then?

Same here.

Once a while i read some breaking news bout something, but i never see something ready for usage.
Besides what fsmithred mentioned above ("and there are already at least three downstream distros using devuan repos - gnuinos, exegnulinux and refracta.")

I guess it would be possible to simply use devuan or one of the mentioned downstream solution without too much problems (that is: none at all) ?


--- This way or that way: Debian and everything based on it was good as long as it lasted. The good old days won't come back (and if i look at other channels, other distros, it doesn't look as if anything even close to Debian-back-then would exist).
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby fig1 » November 24th, 2015, 1:22 pm

nodir wrote: I guess it would be possible to simply use devuan or one of the mentioned downstream solution without too much problems (that is: none at all) ?


every day, yes. so far most of the criticisms ive seen towards devuan (and loosely associated projects) fall into the usual distrowatch-esque "an install step failed" category, of which debian likely has almost/as many per the number of people using it.

this is pretty good considering that the installer isnt ready. (personally ive had more luck installing from the valentine alpha than the beta, at least from usb. using a cd or dvd would help.)

Debian and everything based on it was good as long as it lasted. The good old days won't come back (and if i look at other channels, other distros, it doesn't look as if anything even close to Debian-back-then would exist).


fwiw, it pretty much feels like the good old days once you have it installed. obviously its (getting close to) beta and ymmv. its possible im just "too good" at installing debian to notice the horrible pitfalls, though i never considered myself an expert.

if you want my opinion on "whats really happening" (and even if you dont,) i think it comes down to the unwillingness to say anything is ready before its really, really ready. the big problem i have right now is dbus (on testing.) its stuck at a version where other updates cant install. not an issue on upcoming stable.
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby cynwulf » November 24th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Looking at their main binary package repository, not a lot is going on. The git repository seems in line with this.

https://devuan.org/newsletter_22dec.html
https://github.com/max2344?tab=repositories

The mentioned "prolific research" there seems to have ground to a halt nearly a year ago, or does the link need updating?

It just doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Have you looked at Slackware, gentoo or LFS? There's no systemd stuff there or at least the option to build a system without it.
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby nodir » November 24th, 2015, 3:51 pm

You didn't ask me, i will answer anyway :-)
I used Gentoo for quite a while. It does the job well, no problems as far it's me.
2 or 3 weeks ago i had a look at Salix, which is more easy to maintain (if you have got a couple of computers and don't want the hazzle with drivers and recompile the kernel all the time). Using slapt-get or slapt-src makes packagemanagement very easy (as long one is used to apt-get, duh).
I think funtoo offers the option to use other kernels (for example the debian one), so that would be another good option (to avoid kernel+hardware trouble).

But yeah, what you post is the main reason i don't follow debian based distros anymore (besides refracta). And the community is weird.
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby cynwulf » November 24th, 2015, 5:27 pm

Salix seem to want to continue to stick with Slackware's sysvinit and BSD style rc scripts. I've heard nothing but good things about Salix and Slackware users can use the Salix repositories too.

funtoo uses openrc and they have no intention to change last time I heard.

gentoo at least gives you the choice

LFS gives the most control of all, but probably won't appeal to those who don't want to build their OS "from scratch".

All seem to be better alternatives to Debian or Devuan at the moment for those wanting to avoid systemd.
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby nodir » November 24th, 2015, 5:37 pm

Winston Smith wrote:Salix seem to want to continue to stick with Slackware's sysvinit and BSD style rc scripts. I've heard nothing but good things about Salix and Slackware users can use the Salix repositories too.

i have often heard Slackware would be a rather difficult distribution.
I was astonished how easy Salix is. It is a good option for people who want the system up and running in the blink of an eye (as long they choose full installation, result will be xfce).
If i would have known it earlier i would have skipped my Gentoo experience (in general it is ok too, once it is up, but installation ... urgh).

I really can recommend it (for the ones who prefer it easy).

-
I agree with your list of options (Gentoo or based, Slackware or based or LFS). I would like to add BSD (whichever version).
All of them seem to be well supported and with a reasonable userbase (not sure about LFS).
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Re: adoption takes a while, when it happens

Postby cynwulf » November 25th, 2015, 9:34 am

BSD is another option, but then it's not Linux, so probably hardware support will be a question and, like Slackware and Gentoo, is much more hands on than a Linux distribution like Salix or Debian, where it's just a case of installing everything with a package manager and everything being set up automatically with minimal effort. With the BSDs you have to be able to use the terminal, you have to edit config files and set things up manually. Apart from that most Linux users, especially gentoo, arch, crux, funtoo, Slackware and LFS users among others, should be able to adapt to it.

It seems to me that some people don't want systemd, but still want automation and to be able to avoid the command line. Sadly the people developing all the automated stuff don't see it the same way. Arch, openSUSE, Debian and Ubuntu among others all followed Red Hat in adopting systemd. gnome and freedesktop.org is also all about systemd integration. People can avoid systemd, but only if they're willing to abandon other unUNIXlike software, practices and features which actually contributed to bringing it into being and establishing it as the de facto standard it has quickly become.

To avoid systemd it looks to me like you have to be much more hands on in your approach and just open a terminal and start removing and tweaking stuff. Do you need a graphical network manager? Probably not. Do you need gnome? Not really. Is automounting a necessity? No if you learn how to mount storage devices the proper way or spend some time reading up on how to do it. It may be that a different distribution can offer all of these things anyway by an alternative implementation, by using forked software or by just building the same software with systemd disabled.

If the distribution doesn't allow that or makes it too difficult, then it's not a distribution I would use. To me it makes sense to use a distribution which is completely opposed to systemd, not a distribution which has adopted it fully and has a multitude of avid supporters among the ranks of it's developers. The individual efforts to remove systemd from Debian are much the same as and in some cases part of the efforts of the Devuan 'umbrella'. Apart from the vdev project which does look interesting, the rest of it is simply a duplication of effort. This kind of thing is tackled upstream or as a fresh approach to a distribution, not by shoehorning and beating an existing systemd based distribution into a non systemd distribution. This is like having all the code available and still reverse engineering.

I also have huge respect and admiration for the existing distributions who are staying away from systemd. They do deserve support. If they get it, they will continue to thrive and tip the balance, if they don't they will succumb to systemd as well or simply shut down once the project leaders have had enough.

Ex Debian users still pining for their old distribution are not really 'fighting' systemd. They are facilitating it's complete take over of the Linux eco-system.

Sitting around and waiting for Devuan to finally release something usable is going to be a long wait. I pity those who are resolved to go through that. Dabble in it by all means, but maybe explore alternatives as well?

For every one of you who objects to this, there are 1000 others who willingly accept and use it and even propose that others do the same. The other Debian forums seems to be largely pro systemd and the users there are simply carrying on as normal. The typical answer from the apologists is "my system is working". And that seems to be all that matters. I could install Microsoft Windows and proclaim "my system is working". Linux used to about more than that.

And that's one of the other problems with systemd: "it's good when it works". When it doesn't? That's a whole new ball game. But those self assured "it works for me" types will rarely report it's failures publicly.

I don't think the concept of it not working ever entered Pottering's head. This is because systemd's failings are always blamed on some other software, even the kernel. systemd is (finally!) doing it right, everyone else is wrong and has been wrong since Ritchie and Thompson first flipped the switch.
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