Anything truly new since '73?

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Re: Anything truly new since '73?

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 5th, 2015, 1:27 pm

spoon wrote:I did not actually say that I thought change has to be drastic. I said that innovation can take a drastic form and it does not necessarily have to be bad.
To me the statement seemed to lay most emphasis on drastic change, which would therefore suggest gradual change is rare.

If the kernel is "key to their business", then it's pretty important that they influence and control it as much as possible.

Or are you suggesting that it's just Canonical who do this kind of thing - i.e. "ubuntuising" Debian to suit their needs? How is one different from the other? Corporate control/influence is what it is. It's not different because it's the kernel or a distribution, it's not difference because it's Canonical instead of Red Hat.
Debian and the kernel are not commercial ventures, but if Red Hat and Canonical use the leverage of money to control development that would be corporate takeover. Once the takeover is complete the kernel will become part of the Red Hat company and Debian will become part of the Canonical company.

I have done a lot of research as you well know and read your posts.
My suspicion was confirmed a quarter or a third of the way through that last post. :lol: So I must retract the last statement of my previous post. :ugeek:
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Re: Anything truly new since '73?

Postby cynwulf » October 5th, 2015, 2:16 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:To me the statement seemed to lay most emphasis on drastic change, which would therefore suggest gradual change is rare.

I'm not out to defend systemd, as you know (I don't think it can be defended and it's developers are big enough boys to look after themselves). I believe there can be sweeping changes which literally throw out the old and bring in the new and it can be good. I'm merely challenging the idea that change has to be slow and measured. Sometimes in life this is true, but sometimes in software development it's a problem. OpenSSL is an example of slow evolution, with cruft building up over time - and it turned out that no one had really audited the code extensively and it was full of holes. Sometimes the only answer with code like that is to trash large parts of it - or if that doesn't work, all of it - and start anew/start from a point where it can be fixed rather than applying more and more sticking plasters.

Another is X.org which is why they are working on a new display server. This is because most of the functionality of X, except as a local display server, is never used or broken. The alternative is to continue maintaining that code complete with undiscovered security holes, etc.

systemd on the other hand is the opposite. First they invent the problem, then release the solution and convince everyone they need it and to test it for them. So instead of removing complexity as with OpenSSL -> LibreSSL or X.org server -> wayland. They add to it.

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Debian and the kernel are not commercial ventures, but if Red Hat and Canonical use the leverage of money to control development that would be corporate takeover. Once the takeover is complete the kernel will become part of the Red Hat company and Debian will become part of the Canonical company.

Debian is a base distribution for a commercial venture with many project members being employees of that commercial company and other commercial companies. We are not naive enough to dismiss the corporate entanglement?

And by the way, I'm not against corporations using the code for business or donating. What I am against is corporations controlling and steering free software projects to suit their needs at the expense of everyone else. It's sad that people have a short memory and still can't see what happens when corporations buy up projects and Linux distributions, start throwing their weight around and then developers have to fork it and leave (that's often the only defence they have).

In the case of Debian and the kernel, they would be stupid to take full control as they have a lot of people doing their work for them for free... that's why maintaining influence and paying some of the key people works best.
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:My suspicion was confirmed a quarter or a third of the way through that last post.

Yes I thought I was too obvious and surprised I wasn't spotted earlier... if I'd kept up the presence, we could have had a good old fashioned troll cave vote, the whole show, etc... maybe next time...
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Re: Anything truly new since '73?

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 5th, 2015, 2:23 pm

Damn. Now we must always be on guard. :lol:
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Re: Anything truly new since '73?

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 7th, 2015, 12:38 am

Maybe spoon is correct about about the kernel and GNU having been profit-oriented from the beginning.
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/658809/80d617f0e28fcb99/ "Debian dropping the Linux Standard Base"
To sum up the article as I interpret it: Some people created the LSB as a set of standards for all Linux systems; distributions that meet those standards get the Linux Foundation's official seal of approval; most people outside the Linux Foundation ignore the "directive"; the few who do follow it and the Linux Foundation are happy with are "enterprise" distributions.
As Raboud alluded to, the number of distributions that are certified as LSB-compliant is small. It is hard not to notice that those distributions are largely of the "enterprise" variety.

So maybe it was a corporate agenda since '01. (Not the very beginning, but close to the beginning.)
Troll bait! :D
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