Debian 8 and systemd

Discussion of technology related topics including news, events, and announcements.

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby nodir » June 23rd, 2015, 6:59 pm

First of all dasein is an asshole. And an outstanding one.
Even if his summary would be good i wouldn't link to it.

And yes: I thought the discussion has come to an end? People use systemd or don't use it. No?

And another yes: There is no such thing as a technical question without political implications. When it comes to systemd it is very clear, but it is a general fact.
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 24th, 2015, 8:13 am

The politics is ok, if the technical arguments come first and politics are based on that. In the case of that thread/post/forum user the politics - or the ideology as I prefer to call it - are first and foremost, then the technical arguments are lacking or almost non existent.

It's really the desktops and upstream projects which are weaving in systemd. Even if systemd had not been the default init system - people should consider that the current situation, when syvinit-core is installed, with systemd-shim and systemd not running as PID1, would still have persisted because it's the most expedient way to support multiple inits and the big desktops. sysvinit would have been default - but would the same people still be complaining about systemd cruft or 'tentacles'?

Debian have never catered to ideology. For example, if someone despises gnome, try keeping every bit of gnome stuff out of your system? Maybe with a minimal system, with just a window manager and an obscure web browser you might get away with it, but in my experience gnome cruft creeps into a Debian system very easily - much more so than KDE components.
cynwulf
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: April 26th, 2011, 2:46 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby nodir » June 24th, 2015, 9:32 pm

I didn't say "politics is ok" and i didn't say "politics is not ok"
I said that technical problems *are* political questions (or got political implications).
Talking about it or not talking about it doesn't change that.

People still complain about systemd?
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby nodir » June 24th, 2015, 9:36 pm

To put it more clear:
From a technical point of view Ausschwitz was perfect.
The horror of it comes from the fact that it was seen as a purely technical problem.
Hence the problem, utter, senseless, technology, is discussed quite often in Germany (Einstein, Dürrenmatt, etc).
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby dzz » June 24th, 2015, 10:54 pm

but in my experience gnome cruft creeps into a Debian system very easily - much more so than KDE components

True.. Whether or not you actually use a gnome/kde DE. XFCE4 user here who spent great efforts keeping out gtk3 **** and gnome deps with only limited success.

Difference is gnome/kde does not rule core system components nor unrelated applications leaving no alternative choice. (example: bsdutils) never mind cups, sane-backends, gvfs, udisks2, mplayer, dbus, policykit1, apt-cacher-ng, clamav ...)

It is no longer possible to do even a base (mainstream) debootstrap without *systemd* inclusion. For some it is not enough that you can later purge it then be limited to a window-manager with sudo configured for shutdown.

You can now do that with Devuan (although without at least one 3rd-party repo you still won't get a fully-functional DE except TDE)

Last time I looked at the "shim" it didn't work properly and I read it's future was anyway never intended to be other than temporary.

Systemd has everything to do with politics because it aspires to dominate all from core system components to userspace and is corporate-driven. It is not merely "a replacement init system". Whether or not one understands the finer points of it's code-base (not me) it's technical attributes matter less to many of us.

Here I run a fully-functional Jessie with xfce4, TDE, eudev and consolekit2 built from a (devuan-) bootstrap base.. not only is *systemd* excluded, it never got in from the start. (well, systemd-udev did but was quickly purged). It was hard work over a long time. Now I have live iso's (with installers) using TDE: http://www.exegnulinux.net/downloads/jessie/ also xfce4 using mostly Refracta UI configs (not "official" Refracta): http://www.exegnulinux.net/refracta/iso/

In case anyone is curious why i still subscribe to Debian forums.. Debian user since Sarge here who still has squeeze and wheezy installations. I just don't do mainstream Jessie.
dzz
 
Posts: 55
Joined: March 7th, 2011, 10:28 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby debil » June 25th, 2015, 7:05 am

nodir wrote:To put it more clear:
From a technical point of view Ausschwitz was perfect.
The horror of it comes from the fact that it was seen as a purely technical problem.

The success recipe of the modern meat and dairy industry. (As long as it is kept behind closed doors and non-transparent walls.)
Ultimimate fanboi edition contributor
debil
 
Posts: 662
Joined: February 9th, 2011, 12:02 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby dilberts_left_nut » June 25th, 2015, 9:57 am

At the risk of being on topic ... I have a few production machines now running jessie and to be honest, for what they do (web, database and mail), I haven't really noticed any invasion or takeover, they just continue to work reliably.
Admin is really no different - I still have to search for instructions for whatever i'm trying to do :D
detly wrote:What's wrong with RTFM as an answer when the answer is clearly in The FM and requires only cursory Ring?
User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
 
Posts: 320
Joined: February 10th, 2011, 8:41 am
Location: enzed

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 25th, 2015, 11:03 am

dzz wrote:Difference is gnome/kde does not rule core system components nor unrelated applications leaving no alternative choice.

gnome, the freedesktop.org stuff and to a lesser extent Xfce and KDE are mainly what's pulling in systemd as dependencies...

dzz wrote:(example: bsdutils) never mind cups, sane-backends, gvfs, udisks2, mplayer, dbus, policykit1, apt-cacher-ng, clamav ...)

Is this about libsystemd0 again?

gvfs is maintained by the gnome people, udisks2, dbus, avahi, policykit-1 and upower are all maintained by the same team. This is mainly freedesktop.org/gnome stuff - so what exactly did you expect?

dzz wrote:Systemd has everything to do with politics [..] corporate-driven

A lot of projects are "corporate driven", including gnome and the Linux kernel. The vast majority of the free software you use is corporate funded/influenced/driven.

So what is the solution? Do you want them to just stop what they're doing? The 'problem' with Debian is that unless people have the technical ability to write code and contribute something apart from talk, then they don't get to be involved in the politics.

//edit: trimmed as posts are getting too long and rambling...
Last edited by cynwulf on June 29th, 2015, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
cynwulf
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: April 26th, 2011, 2:46 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby nodir » June 26th, 2015, 10:36 pm

dilberts_left_nut wrote:At the risk of being on topic ... I have a few production machines now running jessie and to be honest, for what they do (web, database and mail), I haven't really noticed any invasion or takeover, they just continue to work reliably.
Admin is really no different - I still have to search for instructions for whatever i'm trying to do :D

I didn't give up on systemd and hence on Debian because it didn't "continue to work". For many, if not most, it is like that.
If it would do so the whole discussion would end in the blink of an eye. Or do you think Debian would stick to an init system which doesn't work?
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby nodir » June 26th, 2015, 10:49 pm

debil wrote:
nodir wrote:To put it more clear:
From a technical point of view Ausschwitz was perfect.
The horror of it comes from the fact that it was seen as a purely technical problem.

The success recipe of the modern meat and dairy industry. (As long as it is kept behind closed doors and non-transparent walls.)

Yes. Another good example. Probably a better one. A pity it didn't came to my mind.
nodir
 
Posts: 307
Joined: June 16th, 2015, 10:10 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Technical Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron

x