Debian 8 and systemd

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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 18th, 2015, 11:51 am

It's normal to declare such things as "bugs". It's because Debian is focused on political play as well as software.

If they "exploited" a loophole then the problem is with the system itself. The system allowed interested parties with corporate backers/employers to gain a foothold and basically steer the project to meet their needs. ubuntu have been doing this for a decade - no one cared - then systemd came a long and you have lots of bluster about "sell outs", etc... The mistake people often make is equating software developers to astute politicians or hard nosed businessmen. As *nix users we often look up to free software developers, yet they are just human at the end of the day and have to work, eat and pay the bills like anyone else.

Like any political system, Debian's is vulnerable. Just like big corporations who buy their way into so called "democracies" via the back door. comical ltd or Red Hat simply employed key people if they liked the work that they're doing - and once contracted they're not exactly going to go against their employer.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby tomazzi » June 19th, 2015, 8:35 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:(...) In the end they decided to not reverse the TC's decision, because a lot of work would have been needed to undo the changes already made, which would have delayed the release of Jessie for a year or more. I got the impression that more people were angered by the machinations that violated the (perceived) spirit of Debian, than by the result.
(...)
But that is history. It is a done deal; signed and delivered.

...which is a stupid argument, because quality should be praised more than release date...
I don't care about opinions based strictly on the fact that "systemd is new, breaks *nix philosophy, so it must be entirely bad".

I know the opinion, that "those who don't understand Unix are going to reinvent it - poorly" - and I'm agree whit this, however, in fact, I like the idea behind systemd - seriously.
The problem (for many people) is, that systemd code is a crap - and noone in the TC didn't even take a quick review of the systemd code - instead, they've just copy-pasted bullshits, lies, and whishes from the "0pointer" website...

This is what have pissed many people - and this is a proof that it was a political, not technical decision. Recent changes in describion of systemd on debian wiki only confirms, that finally they get the point - and decided to no longer spread bullshits about how systemd wonderful and powerful is.

Is it a history? well, we'll see - deuvan is doing well - perhaps many people do not believe that systemd-shim will be kept in future releases. For that reason, I'm also developing my own version of systemd, which will have compatible interfaces, but without that tons of bugs which are making systemd a land mine - waiting for the users to step on it.

(f.e. systemd is not even able to correctly install signal handlers, not to mention proper handling of signals - it's a matter of luck and time when it will crash the system, without even logging a reason of a crash or even without a coredump. Bug reported - and as usual - ignored.)

Regards.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » June 19th, 2015, 11:36 pm

tomazzi wrote:...which is a stupid argument, because quality should be praised more than release date...

Quality should be a top priority. If it is not, people have the choice of living with the result or moving on. Personally, I believe the decision to include developmental software in the system is contrary to the philosophy of only including well-tested and stable software. Some may disagree, but that is my opinion.
I don't care about opinions based strictly on the fact that "systemd is new, breaks *nix philosophy, so it must be entirely bad".

I do not remember anyone being against systemd, because it is new. New garbage, yes, but not simply because it is new.
Why would anyone be opposed to something that is counter to the philosophy the system was built upon? One of the reasons many people view systemd as "entirely bad" is that it violates the core design principles of the system. Rightly or wrongly, it is an argument that cannot be dismissed.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby bulkley » June 22nd, 2015, 3:23 pm

Systemd is not garbage. It works well. That may be a problem in that it would be easier for it's detractors (myself included) to criticize if it did not work.

Does anyone know where Richard Stallman stands on systemd? One would think that Stallman would be raising a big stink about it but, as far as I know, nothing.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 22nd, 2015, 3:56 pm

bulkley wrote:Does anyone know where Richard Stallman stands on systemd? One would think that Stallman would be raising a big stink about it but, as far as I know, nothing.

It's released under one of Stallman's licences (LGPL 2) - hence why there has been nothing said.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby tomazzi » June 22nd, 2015, 10:10 pm

I can't speak for RMS, but - did You people ever heard of dmd?

This is what serious distro should go for - high quality software, written by professional programmers.

Systemd is a crap, and I have prooved it - Lennart Poettering have confirmed my reported bug, but they're not going to do anything about this...
Oh well, he said that he would accept "a patch" - what would mean rewritting systemd core from scratch...

Systemd is *not ready* for serious deployments - it is still in a beta (or perhaps even experimental) stage. Just because it merely works in trivial situations doesn't change the facts.

Regards.

PS:
this is a good article, which is shedding some light on the situation.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 23rd, 2015, 8:30 am


No that 'article' is ideological nonsense from someone who has rarely if ever made a single valuable technical post on that forum. Sorry to see you fell for it as well - your arguments were actually looking good up until that point... (especially since you actually looked at and understand the code)
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » June 23rd, 2015, 9:18 am

this is a good article, which is shedding some light on the situation.
It is shedding light? More like a collection of pieces of basic information scattered across different threads and message boards. There are better sources of information than that post.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby tomazzi » June 23rd, 2015, 2:21 pm

Systemd adoption has both technical and political background (in fact "corporate" would probably be a better word here).
To get the whole picture, it's necessary to know and understand both aspects.

Regards.
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Re: Debian 8 and systemd

Postby cynwulf » June 23rd, 2015, 3:03 pm

The 'article' you linked to informs of neither. It's not impartial, nor unbiased, nor fact based. It's simply an up-it's-own-arse piece of finger wagging and amateur philosophising on a subject the author knows little about.

He claims that he is separating opinion from fact, whereas the entire 'article' is strewn with opinion, rhetoric and hypocritical statements. The whole thing, as with almost every other post by that user, is written in typical condescending form and points the finger at imaginary groups of people or "strawmen" in order to get it's point across.

Sadly the FDN site has become a platform (or 'pulpit') for this kind of thing over the last few years with members using the forum as their own personal blog.

If you don't like systemd, don't use it. Use something else and support another project which avoids it. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do at this stage to stop systemd, nor reverse Debian's decision.

Articles like the one you linked to don't help - they just make the author and those applauding it look absolutely cretinous...
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