The Borg will prevail

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » January 4th, 2015, 12:19 pm

Buntunub wrote:Well. First off, running to BSD land will not protect you from systemd. It is coming to the BSD too fairly soon. Take that to the bank.

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Buntunub wrote:There has already been discussion of it. Try a Google for SystemBSD http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ ... r_for_bsd/. Your only way to escape systemd is in the operating system you create, and even then I think its just a matter of time until a systemd-like solution enters that.

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Buntunub wrote:The ideas behind systemd are not bad ones.

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » January 4th, 2015, 7:36 pm

Nice. Post a bunch of childish crap to argue against the points in my post. Instead of that, if you do not agree with me, post your arguements as Randicus did. Please explain why the ideas behind systemd are not good. I did not say the implementation of systemd was good, although a pretty strong arguement on the technical level could be made in favor of that as well.

Look, a lot of people have made noise about systemd being the devil. Almost none of them have posted their reasons on the technical level. Until this happens, everyone will continue to view these systemd haters as nothing more than a minority of very vocal trolls.

Randicus: I agree with you on the points on systemBSD, however, I think you miss the point. Yes, Lennart said the BSD was not relevant to systemd so it was designed for Linux. A version of it will be ported or created for the BSD because the ideas behind it on the technical level are interesting and if there is a demand for it, and I believe there is/will be. It has nothing to do with Linux compatibility. It is about demand.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » January 4th, 2015, 9:49 pm

You honestly think Theo de Raadt would introduce something like that into the base system of openbsd....

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Now if you are saying someone will create something like that for bsd then I suspect you are right. Heck, you can't stop people from creating whatever they want. But I cannot imagine it ever being included in the base system of openbsd...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » January 4th, 2015, 9:54 pm

Buntunub wrote:Please explain why the ideas behind systemd are not good.


many roads that lead to a single point of failure...or single point of failure that blocks many roads

whichever way you want to look at it
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » January 4th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Buntunub wrote:Nice. Post a bunch of childish crap to argue against the points in my post.

Your post was childish crap so my response was in fact rather fitting...

Buntunub wrote:Look, a lot of people have made noise about systemd being the devil. Almost none of them have posted their reasons on the technical level. Until this happens, everyone will continue to view these systemd haters as nothing more than a minority of very vocal trolls.

You're inferring certain people are not informed, yet your post was a prime example of such - how ironic...

Buntunub wrote:Randicus: I agree with you on the points on systemBSD, however, I think you miss the point. Yes, Lennart said the BSD was not relevant to systemd so it was designed for Linux. A version of it will be ported or created for the BSD because the ideas behind it on the technical level are interesting and if there is a demand for it, and I believe there is/will be. It has nothing to do with Linux compatibility. It is about demand.

You need to get used to the fact that your ideas/hunches/interpretations are often wrong - to put it mildly. systemd is not being ported to "BSD" as you call it. Inform yourself and then come back and discuss...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » January 4th, 2015, 10:46 pm

mean_dean wrote:Now if you are saying someone will create something like that for bsd then I suspect you are right. Heck, you can't stop people from creating whatever they want. But I cannot imagine it ever being included in the base system of openbsd...

It could end up in ports if someone were willing to do the work.

Code: Select all
Port:   freedt-0.22p2
Path:   sysutils/freedt
Info:   reimplementation of Dan Bernstein's daemontools
Maint:   The OpenBSD ports mailing-list <ports@openbsd.org>
Index:   sysutils
L-deps:   
B-deps:   
R-deps:   
Archs:   any

Port:   runit-1.7.2p1
Path:   sysutils/runit
Info:   daemontools alike replacement for init
Maint:   Jeremie Courreges-Anglas <jca@wxcvbn.org>
Index:   sysutils
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 4th, 2015, 10:51 pm

Buntunub wrote:Look, a lot of people have made noise about systemd being the devil. Almost none of them have posted their reasons on the technical level. Until this happens, everyone will continue to view these systemd haters as nothing more than a minority of very vocal trolls.
My experience has been the opposite. Since systemd's inception, many people have explained in detail all of the many things wrong with systemd, but supporters never offer any technical reasons for the superiority of it. The only closest they get is the theory that boot times will be increased by a few seconds, but even with that claim, opponents have provided technical reasons why it should slow boot times. Which theory is true? Don't know, don't care. The point is, opponents have provided lots of technical information that supporters either ignore or dismiss as FUD. So I must disagree with your assessment.

A version of it will be ported or created for the BSD because the ideas behind it on the technical level are interesting and if there is a demand for it, and I believe there is/will be. It has nothing to do with Linux compatibility. It is about demand.
Why do you think there is a demand?
Klingons are fun, but Romulans are the sexiest women in the galaxy.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » January 5th, 2015, 2:35 am

This is already old news. Work on a systemd-like port has been going on for a while now. Google turns up:

Work on a systemd-like piece/parts has already begun at the GSOC:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTc4MjQ
http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article& ... 0915064856
https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitwe ... tembsd.git

In fact, the code for it is already available on Git.

Here is the video of Jordan Hubbard talking about the future of BSD. Pay particular attention from frame 27.23 onwards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mri66Uz6-8Y

Who is Jordan Hubbard? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Hubbard Well aside from being a long time very prominant BSD developer, he co-founded freeBSD. In that video, he also says he commited the very first rc.conf. Nah, he don't know nothin about BSD right? In that talk he said that BSD needs a systemd-like init system replacement. I suppose one could take his word as gospel. It will happen.

Cynwulf: As far as the technical merits of systemd. You are on some kind of crack if you haven't seen the multitude of posts, documentation, and wiki's about it, or you are indeed a troll. The Debian wiki goes into great detail about it, in fact. You may choose to conveniently ignore these documents and call them whatever you like, but many of them do go into great details about the technical merits of systemd. I am certainly no fan of systemd and disagree with the implementation of it on many levels, but even I can't ignore clearly written documentation.

BTW, that video of Jordon was posted on November 17th. A month and a half ago. Old news.
Last edited by Buntunub on January 5th, 2015, 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » January 5th, 2015, 2:46 am


Yes that is work on code to emulate parts of systemd that are needed for software such as gnome. It is certainly not an implementation of systemd for bsd.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » January 5th, 2015, 2:49 am

mean_dean wrote:

Yes that is work on code to emulate parts of systemd that are needed for software such as gnome. It is certainly not an implementation of systemd for bsd.


I did not say it was. SystemBSD is not an attempt to create a new BSD init system, so far as I understand it. What it is though is the crap that BSD now has to deal with thanks to systemd. I think the thing to worry about if you ran away to BSD land is what Jordon Hubbard has to say. Whatever the new init system will be in BSD (if it comes to that) may not be anything like systemd, but it will carry some of the ideas from it that make sense no doubt. He elaborated on some of these concepts in the video, such as parrallel starts, adhoc checkins and etc.
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