The Borg will prevail

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 2nd, 2015, 9:05 pm

cynwulf wrote:I would suggest filtering some of the hysteria about systemd and deciding if systemd is actually a problem for you. [...] There is a lot of anti systemd sentiment on this forum but if you find that your system still works as before, then perhaps there is no need to jump through hoops and start ripping stuff out to avoid it?
Some may be surprised that I agree with cynwulf's assessment. If the concern is only systemd, the change does not affect one's use of the system and learning something new is undesirable, the best option may be to continue using Debian. systemd is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. That is why I am of the opinion:
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:systemd is not going away, so I advise those who truly do not like it and the direction Linux is moving toward to switch now.
The issue is more philosophical than technical. systemd is one part of a shift in design and operation philosophy. For Debian in particular, there is also the issue of a second change in philosophy. Abandoning the dedication to producing a stable system by only including well-tested software. Regardless of whether one loves or hates systemd, the fact is it is still in development. If having a stable system is sufficient and design details are not important, Debian users unhappy with the distribution's new course can switch to another Linux system. The question of migrating away from Linux all together should depend on one's feelings toward the overall picture of Linux development.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby bmc5311 » January 2nd, 2015, 9:35 pm

cynwulf wrote:I would suggest filtering some of the hysteria about systemd and deciding if systemd is actually a problem for you. There is a lot of anti systemd sentiment on this forum but if you find that your system still works as before, then perhaps there is no need to jump through hoops and start ripping stuff out to avoid it?


Sound advice, thank you.. - Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing, and I think that's what I'll do for the moment.. 8-)
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby bmc5311 » January 2nd, 2015, 9:36 pm

golinux wrote:bmc5311 . . . here's a list of libudev depends and reverse depends in Jessie showing the reach of systemd entanglements. udev is intertwined with systemd and proving to be a big headache to replace. eudev is a drop in replacement but an alternate has to be found as systemd expands its reach and locks things down further.


wow, that's quite the list.. :?
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » January 2nd, 2015, 9:48 pm

bmc5311 wrote:
golinux wrote:bmc5311 . . . here's a list of libudev reverse depends in Jessie showing the reach of systemd entanglements. udev is intertwined with systemd and proving to be a big headache to replace. eudev is a drop in replacement but an alternate has to be found as systemd expands its reach and locks things down further.


wow, that's quite the list.. :?

That's why systemd is unacceptable. Pokes its fingers everywhere. Destroys modularity and turns Linux into a monolithic structure.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby bmc5311 » January 2nd, 2015, 10:20 pm

golinux wrote:That's why systemd is unacceptable. Pokes its fingers everywhere. Destroys modularity and turns Linux into a monolithic structure.


I do a net install, add open box and the few applications I need, uses about 7 GB (home & / combined) and idles between 65 and 90 MB's of ram. It's a pretty weak machine, mac mini @ 1.83 GHZ and 2 GB of ram, I mainly use it to vpn into my work machine, control my pool pump and have been digitizing my vinyl collection.... I guess as long as that doesn't change, I may leave it as is, I'll wait and see how much flotsam and jetsam I get at the next upgrade and will make the decision then.. In the meantime, I guess I need to read more. I used to tinker and dink around a lot more than I do now..

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^^ pretty basic....
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » January 2nd, 2015, 10:50 pm

If you don't care about whats under the hood then I would recommend you use debian default of systemd and live happily ever after.

If you use a minimal system and don't want systemd then it is possible
viewtopic.php?p=29976#p29976

and if you use amd64 then trios has a repo with packages that will let you have a more complete system
viewtopic.php?p=30168#p30168


Been looking at openbsd, but I'm not excited about setting up the whole enchilada from scratch...

Actually easier than it seems. The base install (if you install all software sets) is actually more complete than it seems at first glance and adding software is as easy as entering a command or two. Heck, ten minutes to install from install56.iso and another five to install icewm and firefox is probably quicker than the same in debian.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby jheaton5 » January 3rd, 2015, 7:31 pm

cynwulf wrote:I would suggest filtering some of the hysteria about systemd and deciding if systemd is actually a problem for you. There is a lot of anti systemd sentiment on this forum but if you find that your system still works as before, then perhaps there is no need to jump through hoops and start ripping stuff out to avoid it?

This statement reflects my personal position on systemd. I find that systemd does not affect how I use my system, but I am critical enough to watch and be aware of what is being added/taken away from debian. Debian is still my OS of choice.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » January 3rd, 2015, 7:41 pm

Heck I think systemd will improve many users experience with linux. If you have liked linux and what it has become in the past couple/few years then I would think you would love systemd. If you want your system to "just work" in regards to a comfortable desktop experience then I would say systemd is probably another step in the right direction.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » January 4th, 2015, 5:01 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:
cynwulf wrote:I would suggest filtering some of the hysteria about systemd and deciding if systemd is actually a problem for you. [...] There is a lot of anti systemd sentiment on this forum but if you find that your system still works as before, then perhaps there is no need to jump through hoops and start ripping stuff out to avoid it?
Some may be surprised that I agree with cynwulf's assessment. If the concern is only systemd, the change does not affect one's use of the system and learning something new is undesirable, the best option may be to continue using Debian. systemd is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. That is why I am of the opinion:
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:systemd is not going away, so I advise those who truly do not like it and the direction Linux is moving toward to switch now.
The issue is more philosophical than technical. systemd is one part of a shift in design and operation philosophy. For Debian in particular, there is also the issue of a second change in philosophy. Abandoning the dedication to producing a stable system by only including well-tested software. Regardless of whether one loves or hates systemd, the fact is it is still in development. If having a stable system is sufficient and design details are not important, Debian users unhappy with the distribution's new course can switch to another Linux system. The question of migrating away from Linux all together should depend on one's feelings toward the overall picture of Linux development.


Well. First off, running to BSD land will not protect you from systemd. It is coming to the BSD too fairly soon. Take that to the bank. There has already been discussion of it. Try a Google for SystemBSD http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ ... r_for_bsd/. Your only way to escape systemd is in the operating system you create, and even then I think its just a matter of time until a systemd-like solution enters that.

The ideas behind systemd are not bad ones. I am not so much against systemd as I am concerned about a monoculture developing out of it. I am still greatly concerned with the way that Debian foisted systemd upon us all, and the downstream projects that use Debian as a base. That being said, systemd or some version of it was going to happen to Linux and I think everyone saw that writing on the wall years ago unless you had your head in the sand.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 4th, 2015, 6:23 am

I only needed to read the first three or four posts in that thread to figure out they are discussing someone's small project that is nothing more than a Linux compatibility utility. If successful, it will be for BSD users who want to use Linux applications that depend on systemd. That is a not a sign of systemd taking over BSD, Solaris and OSX. To the contrary, the cabal have stated in the past that they are not interested in BSD, because it is no longer relevant. Hence, why they are intentionally removing portability. Systemd is intended to be the new core of Linux. All other OSes do not enter the picture. This is the point where some people will want to say, "But when Gnome, KDE, etc. are systemd-dependent, BSD will need to adopt it." No. Slackware dropped support for Gnome a few years ago. It will not be difficult for BSD to abandon DEs like Gnome and KDE. Especially considering most BSD users use WMs. Only a small number of people would lose their big DEs. That is also why PCBSD is creating a BSD-specific DE to replace the KDE they currently use.
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