The Borg will prevail

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 21st, 2014, 8:09 pm

Sorry to piss on your bonfire - but Linux was never really about code quality and over the years all sorts of shit was released and patched later on. systemd just makes a much bigger target because of the bigger changes and the main developer being a silly little arsehole who doesn't know when to shut up. There are plenty of arsehole developers out there, but you don't know about them, because they avoid mouthing off on the web in a way that pisses people off.

I think the ranters needs to clarify as to what they're actually pissed off about.

1) You don't like the attitude of the developers: Neither do I, but Torvalds is not exactly a "nice guy" either.

2) It's not "UNIX" enough (POSIX/KISS, etc): What is UNIX? If you knew, I have a feeling that you wouldn't be running Linux - and certainly not a Linux distribution like Debian and would not be using either of the two major DEs.

3) "Choice" has been reduced, you've been railroaded into this: Explain how? Explain how there was more choice before?

4) There is corporate involvement/it's being pushed by Red Hat: So what? So has a lot of the other software and this is no different.

5) Debian was a 'community' Linux distribution/Debian has changed/is no longer putting the user first/is no longer the universal OS: Nothing has changed. Debian used it's long standing political structure/processes and developers voted and systemd as default init was the result. Due to the nature of Debian (what gets maintained is whatever people want to maintain - it's a do-ocracy) sysvinit compatibility may die, there's not much that can be done about it. If someone doesn't maintain something, it vanishes. Debian is a distribution where the kFreeBSD port was possible, and is still possible, systemd or not, if there's a will there's a way. But if no one steps up to do the work it won't happen.

I believe it won't happen, because on the whole the anti systemd people prefer to procrastinate and found anti systemd sites and just pontificate incessantly on the same few points. Debian's role in the GNU/Linux ecosystem has changed dramatically from when I began using it in '08, it's now pretty much just the base system for other Linux distributions such as 'buntu. The influence of 'buntu developers over the project affected me enough to lead me to give up on it a few years ago - well before the systemd stink.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 23rd, 2014, 12:06 am

Buntunub wrote:For starters, why would Debian even want to take on such pain, knowing that by taking on such a buggy mess that it will greatly prolong the freeze periods between stable releases, and at worse, make Sid unusable over and over again as they merge in shitty code that will have to be extensively debugged? Makes less and less sense the more you look into it.
It was pointed out somewhere on this board before, and makes sense to me, that a major motivating factor was the desire to not only keep Gnome, but keep Gnome as the de facto default GUI. Stupid motivation, but it may indeed be true. (Red Hat's influence?)

cynwulf wrote:I think the ranters needs to clarify as to what they're actually pissed off about.

1) You don't like the attitude of the developers: Neither do I, but Torvalds is not exactly a "nice guy" either.
Torvalds is seen as the creator of Linux, while Poettering is viewed as changing the Holy Grail. So Torvalds' asinine behaviour is seen as good, but Poettering's is seen as bad.

3) "Choice" has been reduced, you've been railroaded into this: Explain how? Explain how there was more choice before?
Although some distributions did give users a choice of init systems, the way I see it is the issue of choice is not about users, but about distros. Until now, distros were free to use whatever they wanted. In the future, they will have no choice. If they want a Linux system, they will have to use systemd, because major software projects; Gnome, etc., will require it. Not to mention how systemd integrates the entire system. From the user's perspective, it means losing the range of available distributions.

5) Debian was a 'community' Linux distribution/Debian has changed/is no longer putting the user first/is no longer the universal OS: Nothing has changed. Debian used it's long standing political structure/processes and developers voted and systemd as default init was the result. Due to the nature of Debian (what gets maintained is whatever people want to maintain - it's a do-ocracy) sysvinit compatibility may die, there's not much that can be done about it.
On the surface, Debian's political structure looks good. The problem is, it was created at a time when Linux was a realm of computer geeks working together to create software for themselves. No one foresaw the need to put mechanisms in place to prevent companies from taking advantage of the democratic-like decision-making structure. The distribution's structure was both Debian's greatest strength and greatest weakness.

Debian's role in the GNU/Linux ecosystem has changed dramatically from when I began using it in '08, it's now pretty much just the base system for other Linux distributions such as 'buntu. The influence of 'buntu developers over the project affected me enough to lead me to give up on it a few years ago - well before the systemd stink.
The butisation of Debian and the spectre of systemd are what compelled me to start looking at alternatives long before systemd's arrival.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 23rd, 2014, 10:21 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Although some distributions did give users a choice of init systems, the way I see it is the issue of choice is not about users, but about distros. Until now, distros were free to use whatever they wanted. In the future, they will have no choice. If they want a Linux system, they will have to use systemd, because major software projects; Gnome, etc., will require it. Not to mention how systemd integrates the entire system. From the user's perspective, it means losing the range of available distributions.

Prior to the decision to switch to systemd, I never remember reading anything much about forum users running any of the alternative init systems - either at FDN or at this place. I never did this myself - as I was happy with System V init...

I don't buy the "choice" argument and when it comes to choosing an init system I am not "pro choice". I think Linux had a fairly good, proven and functional init system - people lived with it's supposed limitations for years - now suddenly, some whelp comes along to tell everyone they've been doing it all wrong...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 23rd, 2014, 2:41 pm

Like your new avatar.
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » December 23rd, 2014, 4:13 pm

cynwulf wrote:3) "Choice" has been reduced, you've been railroaded into this: Explain how? Explain how there was more choice before?

I could choose xfce or kde or gnome AND choose sysv or other init system/helper.

That being said, I don't blame systemd for anything. Systemd is just a piece of software. They aren't forcing anyone to adopt it, depend on it, use it, or even support it at all. The ones to blame, if you want to blame someone, are those that decided to adopt it, depend on it, use it, support it, etc...

I do question why it was adopted/implemented so quickly and completely but the answer really doesn't matter as it is the way it is.

I am kind of glad for it actually, in a disappointed sort of way. Linux moves on, as it always has, adopting 'new and improved' stuff (this time in a very substantial way) and I still get to choose to not use it (albeit a bit more inconveniently than other times).


5) Debian was a 'community' Linux distribution/Debian has changed/is no longer putting the user first/is no longer the universal OS: Nothing has changed. Debian used it's long standing political structure/processes and developers voted and systemd as default init was the result.

I would say something changed. What happened to sane defaults and well tested/proven software. Debian finally started running downhill with the other distros rather than taking a slower and safer approach. They also seemed to start catering to a certain type of user. I consider both of those to be different than before. Of course "before" was a long time ago sadly. Maybe even longer than I realized now that I think about it.


The influence of 'buntu developers over the project affected me enough to lead me to give up on it a few years ago - well before the systemd stink.

I haven't given up completely. I actually kind of like the minimal system that is possible without systemd. It also kind of seperates the user base into (for lack of better terms) progressives and luddites. I kind of like that it creates that divide. I just wish debian made a luddite install image, a luddite repo, and so forth. Since they dont I am not sure debian is a good choice for a luddite. And they aren't great at being progressive... I am afraid debian just made themselves pointless.

DEBIAN - yet another distro that offers a canned install that tries to do everything for you...and does so less well than others that have been doing so for much much longer...



ps - While I haven't given up completely I do have a bsd install....or two....

.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » December 23rd, 2014, 4:25 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote: If they want a Linux system, they will have to use systemd, because major software projects; Gnome, etc., will require it.

Those that choose to use complex software projects have always been required to use the underlying technology of those projects. Its just that before systemd there hasn't been such a widely adopted and far reaching underlying technology.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 23rd, 2014, 4:51 pm

mean_dean wrote:I could choose xfce or kde or gnome AND choose sysv or other init system/helper.

True, but for a long time you had no choice of init and no one cared - I suppose that was my main point.

mean_dean wrote:I would say something changed. What happened to sane defaults and well tested/proven software. Debian finally started running downhill with the other distros rather than taking a slower and safer approach. They also seemed to start catering to a certain type of user. I consider both of those to be different than before. Of course "before" was a long time ago sadly. Maybe even longer than I realized now that I think about it.

When I read all the crap a few years ago about "continuously usable testing" and started noticing a lot of butnutisms appearing and the excessive butnut influence, I kind of knew what lay ahead... and just decided to get out to avoid disappointment.

mean_dean wrote:DEBIAN - yet another distro that offers a canned install that tries to do everything for you...and does so less well than others that have been doing so for much much longer...

Last time I tried to install it, It reminded me of butnut from a few years back. The declining quality of the threads at FDN also pretty much says it all - the absence of most of the old users is also really telling - I see some popping up now and again on other distros' forums and even on *BSD forums... As the distro reminds of butnut from a few years ago, FDN reminds me of butnut forums of a few years ago.


mean_dean wrote:ps - While I haven't given up completely I do have a bsd install....or two....

There is a learning curve. But *BSD tends to fit your needs in a fashion: small base system and then add the rest. You may not be able to fine tune what gets installed however, as various *BSD ports systems usually tend to go for bigger packages for software rather than breaking one bit of software into loads of bits (Slackware is similar in this respect).
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » December 24th, 2014, 4:39 am

cynwulf wrote:True, but for a long time you had no choice of init and no one cared - I suppose that was my main point.

Yep, in a way there are more choices now, at least as far as init. Certainly more awareness of init systems...

I think you are right, those ranting need to clarify exactly what the rant is about. They also need to direct the rant in the proper direction too. Then again I am not sure there is anything to rant about. It seems like the same old the-devs-changed-something-and-I-dont-like-it rant we have heard a few times in the past. I guess the same advice applies - don't like it then don't use it.

When I read all the crap a few years ago about "continuously usable testing" and started noticing a lot of butnutisms appearing and the excessive butnut influence, I kind of knew what lay ahead... and just decided to get out to avoid disappointment.

I didn't think much about it at the time but I probably should of. Now that I think about it I guess CUT was actually more of an attempt to get debian moving faster. Not a good thing. I figured the butnut odds and ends was just like finding redhat icons and such, just some customization creeping in from upstream but you may be right. It does seem like the whole mindset changed to try and make debian 'user friendly' and 'easier'. That is a sure way to attract certain crowds but they should of realized those type of crowds already had plenty of distros to play with and complain whenever the devs made changes. Maybe debian deserves all these you-changed-something-I-liked ranters...


As the distro reminds of butnut from a few years ago, FDN reminds me of butnut forums of a few years ago.

QFT!


There is a learning curve. But *BSD tends to fit your needs in a fashion: small base system and then add the rest. You may not be able to fine tune what gets installed however, as various *BSD ports systems usually tend to go for bigger packages for software rather than breaking one bit of software into loads of bits (Slackware is similar in this respect).

PCBSD was too easy! PCBSD is definitely is not the minimal system I prefer but it is nice having a working system to start learning with rather than having to learn just to get the system working. Now to figure out allt hese package choices...ports....pbi....pkg....pkgng....meta-package-manager......


I am still thinking about doing an old-school respin of debian, maybe do a few different isos with what little bit of software that can be installed without *systemd* and such. Assuming by the time jessie is released you can even install an xserver without it...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Sephiroth » December 25th, 2014, 4:38 am

I doubt XFCE or LXDE would tie into systemd so if KDE does the only thing I really lose is the awesome K3B. I have yet to find comparable software in Linux. I have been installing Gentoo all over the place and the comments I am getting from people using it are all positive, so I suppose the switch was a good move to make either way. I guess I never noticed how slow and large Debian became over the years.

As for the comments on choice and everything, that isn't my quarrel. My quarrel is much simpler. I am being made to use a piece of software which is unstable, super-hackable, and will slow my system down. I don't want a layer of complexity like this in Linux. If I did I would just use Windows. Windows already has an insanely complicated web of layers which prevent all kind of goodness like allowing applications access to the kernel. I mean what the heck happens if systemd dies while working on a term paper? Can LibreOffice keep going at that point? I doubt it, if it is tied to systemd. Would that be a "blue-screen"? Currently if some app dies I keep going, save, and either fix the app or reboot. I don't want to stress over stability like this!

On the flip-side, had systemd stayed an init-system, not a binary logger, not a mini web-server, not an API which everything must talk to to get access to my kernel, I would have happily used it. Oh and let's not forget having package-management in there! At that point you only have one distro since packages and all come from one spot. We'd all be running the same thing. I like the differences in the distros right now. If I wanted everything identical I'd buy a damn Mac.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 25th, 2014, 5:46 am

Sephiroth wrote:On the flip-side, had systemd stayed an init-system
Does anyone really believe only an init system was the original plan? That was the starting point for implementation and a good one. Tell people it is only a new (and better, because the existing one is old and must be replaced, because it is old) initisalisation method. People will accept the small (and better, because it is new) change. Once it is in place and the true scope becomes apparent to those would were not paying attention, it is too late to prevent it.
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