The Borg will prevail

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » December 5th, 2014, 5:57 am

Yeah. Debian (maintainers & DDs) can't really be held to that contract anyway. They will just do whatever suits their needs, as they have always done. Not saying that that is bad, because it is not. I think it just happens that with Systemd, most of them seem to think the benefits in it for them are much greater than say Upstart, OpenRC, or SysV.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Hallvor » December 5th, 2014, 7:14 am

Buntunub wrote:Hey. Welcome to last month! We hashed that out already. The Social Contract is not worth the shit its written on and never has. It was a bad joke to put a "nicey nice" face on Debian for all it does. Far as I can tell, The contract has been out there and ignored since soon after it came out. It was written in a stupid way anyway.


Sorry for not reading every single thread here or forgetting about stuff I have read. The latter may be a side effect of boxing and involuntarily sniffing glue while building model airplanes. :(

While I do agree that it is worth nothing now, to find out if it has meant anything in the past, one would need intimate knowledge of the context that lead to its creation back in 1997. I don't have such knowledge.

You state that the Social Contract was never worth anything. Could you please explain why this happened in that particular context? Don't take this the wrong way, I am asking because I don't know.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 5th, 2014, 7:25 am

If it was written in '97, it may have meant exactly what it says. However, back then the user base would have been people who knew at least little about configuring a system and installing drivers for basic functions. In that context, the goals of developers and needs of users would have been the same. After the system became easier to use and the user base became dominated by people who lack the knowledge possessed by the early users, the desires of developers and users diverged. Or put another way, in the early days, there was much less difference between developer and user than there is today. (Or the Social Contract could have been a lie from the beginning. I suspect the former.)
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 5th, 2014, 11:25 am

It was from the early days when a different breed of developer was involved in the project. I remember reading some comments by debian developers on a mailing list about getting rid of the bit about users being priority and discussing the meaning and relevance of the "universal os" tag line. It seems to be just buzzwords and relics of a bygone age that the current generation neither understand nor care about.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Hallvor » December 5th, 2014, 6:49 pm

I stumbled upon the Debian Manifesto from 1993 by Ian Murdock, the very principles Debian was founded upon.

The Debian design process is open to ensure that the system is of the highest quality and that it reflects the needs of the user community. By involving others with a wide range of abilities and backgrounds, Debian is able to be developed in a modular fashion. Its components are of high quality because those with expertise in a certain area are given the opportunity to construct or maintain the individual components of Debian involving that area. Involving others also ensures that valuable suggestions for improvement can be incorporated into the distribution during its development; thus, a distribution is created based on the needs and wants of the users rather than the needs and wants of the constructor. It is very difficult for one individual or small group to anticipate these needs and wants in advance without direct input from others.


http://manifestoindex.blogspot.no/2011/ ... rdock.html

I think the part about creating the distro based on the needs and wants of the users must have been sincere back in the day. He makes a strong case for it and it makes sense.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » December 5th, 2014, 7:18 pm

Sure. Back then Debian was being put together in a very sane way and the people involved in it were some of the greats of their time. Debian is no longer run that way and it no longer has the talent in it that made it what it was. It has basically been hijacked by special interest groups and seems to base its decisions these days purely off the needs dictated to it from these. Maybe some of it too is the current crop of super lazy DDs who just don't want to bother with doing anything that is even somewhat difficult, like maintaining multiple init systems or making packages which pull in Systemd dependancies more generic. This often leads to the false doocracy dichotomy where some people will tell you to change things by doing. Well, this will not work in the case of Systemd for many and obvious reasons. There are too many packages now which will pull in these dependency chains, and some of these packages are maintained by people who have no interest in removing them. This is what is the root cause and effect of the fork, which now went live.

As an aside, I noticed that the DPL reached out to Devuan. I think they should let the DPL know that their interest is not wanted nor appreciated. Afterall, it is the current crop of DDs who brought us to this sorry pass and forced the need for a fork. Devuan needs to start off strong and call these people out for what they are. They also need to let all of Debians current downstream projects know that they can and should rebase on Devuan as soon as it is stable. This includes Ubuntu, of course.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 5th, 2014, 11:14 pm

'93? Back then, how many Linux users were not hackers? Debian outgrew the social contract a long time ago. It is like obsolete laws that remain long after they are no longer relevant. I am reminded of the Canadian province of Alberta. In the '80s a bunch of old laws dating from the formation of the province were finally dropped. Such as laws that made it illegal to have a cattle drive on a city's main street. The vaunted social contract either needs to be amended to reflect the current era or discarded.

Are the developers lazy? Or are they working within a paradigm much different than the one used twenty years ago? The nature of systemd is all or nothing. Its purpose, after all, is to be the base of a new Linux design. If it is adopted, developers have little or no leeway to work around it.

Taking a hostile approach toward Debian will ensure the failure of Devuan. Treat the parent as an enemy, while trying to create a fork that is fully compatible with the parent?
They also need to let all of Debians current downstream projects know that they can and should rebase on Devuan as soon as it is stable. This includes Ubuntu, of course.
And I thought the Veteran Unix Admins had delusions of grandeur. :o Trying to start too big would be an utter failure. Start small; nourish and grow; replace the old guard.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 11th, 2014, 11:30 am

Debian's new logo?

Image
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby BowCatShot » December 19th, 2014, 2:36 pm

golinux wrote:This comment was posted by none other than craigevil over at Mozillazine in a rather heated thread about systemd:
systemd may or may not be a bad thing. Personally as long as my system still works I see no point in changing.

Unfortunately, this the the attitude most users will take (if they ever have a clue what systemd is).


If the problem is that they never had a clue what systemd is, don't you think that it would help if someone like yourself, who does know what systemd is, would explain it clearly and succinctly so that they can understand and then be able to respond intelligently?
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 19th, 2014, 4:48 pm

BowCatShot wrote:
golinux wrote:This comment was posted by none other than craigevil over at Mozillazine in a rather heated thread about systemd:
systemd may or may not be a bad thing. Personally as long as my system still works I see no point in changing.

Unfortunately, this the the attitude most users will take (if they ever have a clue what systemd is).


If the problem is that they never had a clue what systemd is, don't you think that it would help if someone like yourself, who does know what systemd is, would explain it clearly and succinctly so that they can understand and then be able to respond intelligently?

The flaws in systemd have been explained over and over and OVER. It hardly needs another iteration. Now if Linus would start squawking . . . that's another story . . .
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