The Borg will prevail

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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 3rd, 2014, 11:28 pm

Electoral College not Electoral Council. ;)
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 3rd, 2014, 11:33 pm

Oops. That was an embarrassing slip of the tongue, so to speak. :oops: The blunder has been corrected.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby golinux » December 3rd, 2014, 11:59 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Oops. That was an embarrassing slip of the tongue, so to speak. :oops: The blunder has been corrected.
IIRC you're Canadian so you get a free pass. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » December 4th, 2014, 1:27 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:That is an example of an oligarchy, not a democracy.


No, not really. Oligarchies are run by super rich people who run things from the sidelines. Exactly as in the situation in the US. These people do not want it to be known who they are and especially do not want anyone to know what they are doing, again as in the situation of the US, which ceased to exist as a functioning Democracy about a hundred years ago. But we digress into meaningless US politics. The situation as it exists in Debian is a bastardized beaurocracy run by conglomerates who, yes, look out for their own interests. The funny thing about Debian is that it has never been a user oriented distro. It has always been a doocracy. The Debian Constitution was the real poison pill that brought us the mess we have today, as Hess alluded to.

Oh, why are we even talking about this foolishness anyway? Debian is what it is and will continue to evolve into more of a "malware" type pusher for the FOSS world. It started for me with Debian rabidly pushing GNOME3 on everyone in Wheezy instead of taking a more neutral approach to DEs. They do not even need to have a "default" anything. The vast majority of people who use Debian regularly are not newbs and know very well how to install and configure whatever the hell they want. Now, its Systemd. What's next up on the agenda?
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 4th, 2014, 2:18 am

Buntunub wrote:No, not really.
Yes, really.

Oligarchies are run by super rich people who run things from the sidelines. ... These people do not want it to be known who they are and especially do not want anyone to know what they are doing
No. An oligarchy can be that way, but throughout history almost all oligarchies have been openly recognised. Oligarchy simply means rule by a few.

The vast majority of people who use Debian regularly are not newbs and know very well how to install and configure whatever the hell they want. Now, its Systemd. What's next up on the agenda?
Is that still the case? Or have newbies become the majority of Debians user base? Debian's focus has changed from users of moderate knowledge toward the same crowd Ubuntu and Mint cater to. Thanks mainly to Ubuntu's influence. (Canonical employees moonlighting as Debian developers.) To be honest, to a large extent Debian has become a development system for Ubuntu. If you look at the people complaining, you will see a pattern. They fall into two groups: long-time users and new users who do not fit the Ubuntu-Mint model (like to learn about the system and value the freedom to customise the system any way they want). I would argue that Debian's developers are concerned with the needs of users, but not the users who brought them to the dance. They are concerned with making the system suitable for the vast majority of today's Linux users: people who want a freeware Windows clone. That majority is the focus, not the vocal minority that value quality over glitz. Debian is riding the flow of Linux, not trying to lead.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby cynwulf » December 4th, 2014, 2:08 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Your point is understood and is generally true, but the American president is not elected by the voting masses. He is elected by the Electoral College, which is composed of members appointed by provincial ("state") governors and governesses, who vote for whichever candidate they are told to vote for. (The will of the people. :lol: )

I am fully aware of this. The "president/government" comment was an allusion to what the people consciously vote for: Some vote for their party, others vote for the figurehead.

Buntunub wrote:No, not really. Oligarchies are run by super rich people who run things from the sidelines. Exactly as in the situation in the US. These people do not want it to be known who they are and especially do not want anyone to know what they are doing, again as in the situation of the US, which ceased to exist as a functioning Democracy about a hundred years ago.

Assuming for a moment that your definition of oligarchy is correct, which it isn't, apply that to free software development:

- Involvement of "super rich people": They fund and contribute developers, development time and infrastructure/equipment to the projects, e.g. HP, google, Red Hat, IBM, Intel, etc...

- Running things from "the sidelines": Hunt for these people/corporations and look for details of their involvement and you will have to go out of your way. It's almost never there in plain sight. There is the project "shop front", then there is corporate "back room". You will find this almost everywhere in the free software world (but you will find it several clicks from the main page).

Buntunub wrote:The situation as it exists in Debian is a bastardized beaurocracy run by conglomerates who, yes, look out for their own interests. The funny thing about Debian is that it has never been a user oriented distro. It has always been a doocracy.

When Linux distros first started out, there was a blurred line between a user and a maintainer. Most users had to build from source and this led to them becoming maintainers and packagers and becoming contributors to distros. There were few "users" in the sense of today's multitudes of users who contribute nothing at all, but still expect - and often actually feel entitled to - something which works out of the box, runs all of the shit they ran on windows and has a fancy graphical installer.
Buntunub wrote: It started for me with Debian rabidly pushing GNOME3 on everyone in Wheezy instead of taking a more neutral approach to DEs. They do not even need to have a "default" anything.

No one had gnome 3 "pushed" on them. The option was always there to install something else. gnome could and still can be removed and an alternative used.

The gnome maintainers in Debian understandably opted to switch to gnome 3 in keeping with upstream and abandoned the previous release. Sticking with gnome 2 - a project no longer maintained upstream - was not an option for a distribution like Debian - but try telling that to enraged "consumers"... also as the maintainers of gnome in Debian, they kind of got to choose what they maintained as they were the ones doing the work...

The complaints about gnome 3 at the time came from the vocal minority of ex butnut users who had previously fled to Debian when the default gnome 2 DE was replaced with unity.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby mean_dean » December 4th, 2014, 3:49 pm

I don't think of systemd as a good or bad thing. It is just something I do not care for.

I always liked that debian really didnt give a shit about the users beyond offering a smorgasbord with simple and sane defaults. I like that it didn't cater to me, or anyone else, as that would of ruined what made it so universal. But now it seems that I cant even have carrots without having peas and stuffing included. Actually it seems even worse, I cant even have a glass of water without being told that I have to have the peas and carrots with it.

I just dont see systemd as a sane default and I REALLY do not see why a package that can optionally use systemd should be compiled/packaged so that it requires it. Certainly if it is optional it can be compiled/packaged as to use it if present and fallback if it is not. Heck if nothing else how about two separate packages, one that obviously is to be used with systemd and one that can do without. Much like pcmanfm use to have pcmanfm and pcmanfm-nohal versions. I can think of a few other packages that are split to use different backends and such. I can also think of a few that optionally used XYZ if it was present and continued working if it wasn't present. Isn't that the saner approach. Wasn't that what debian was all about.

Bring on the forks! Actually just bring on packages compiled/packaged sanely and plenty of others will take care of the respins...
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Hallvor » December 4th, 2014, 7:20 pm

Buntunub wrote:The funny thing about Debian is that it has never been a user oriented distro.


Really? Let me quote the Debian Social Contract:

4. Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software

We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free-software
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We
will support the needs of our users for operation in many different
kinds of computing environment. [...]


https://lists.debian.org/debian-announc ... 00017.html

So yes, Debian at least had user orientation as an ideal in the past.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Buntunub » December 5th, 2014, 1:42 am

Hallvor wrote:
Buntunub wrote:The funny thing about Debian is that it has never been a user oriented distro.


Really? Let me quote the Debian Social Contract:

4. Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software

We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free-software
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We
will support the needs of our users for operation in many different
kinds of computing environment. [...]


https://lists.debian.org/debian-announc ... 00017.html

So yes, Debian at least had user orientation as an ideal in the past.


Hey. Welcome to last month! We hashed that out already. The Social Contract is not worth the shit its written on and never has. It was a bad joke to put a "nicey nice" face on Debian for all it does. Far as I can tell, The contract has been out there and ignored since soon after it came out. It was written in a stupid way anyway.
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Re: The Borg will prevail

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 5th, 2014, 4:48 am

Hallvor wrote:Really? Let me quote the Debian Social Contract:

Which means nothing in itself. If those words actually represented what the developers thought at the time, then yes, the Social Contract reflected a desire to put the users first. It is also possible that it was only propaganda put forth to placate users with a false promise. Which is true? That can be an interesting debate.
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