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Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 12:41 am
by anastasis
It looks like we are a go for Debian Fork.

I'll throw it a bill because I believe firmly we have crossed a tipping point.

And there is no going back.

http://debianfork.org/

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 4:46 am
by Randicus Draco Albus
Waste of money.
We are forking the Debian project to create a new base distribution that promotes Init Freedom.

Good idea, but what about packages? Install from source or create a duplicate of Debian's repository with any changes that must be made to remove systemd dependencies in all packages that will eventually have them?

First of all and concurrently with Debian 8 "Jessie" release, we aim at having a complete solution to which current Debian users can dist-upgrade smoothly.
It seems their goal is to make a few minor changes to the base system that will be able to continue using Debian's package repository.

Creating a derivative that begins with Debian's base system minus systemd might be viable. It would require two conditions: 1) Enough developers to create and maintain a repository or use package installation from source. The latter is possible, the former is not. 2) The Poettering cabal does not target the new group of "haters" like they are currently targeting Gentoo. This project's goals are too wide-reaching and too ambiguous to take it seriously.

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 5:47 am
by anastasis
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Waste of money.
We are forking the Debian project to create a new base distribution that promotes Init Freedom.

Good idea, but what about packages? Install from source or create a duplicate of Debian's repository with any changes that must be made to remove systemd dependencies in all packages that will eventually have them?

First of all and concurrently with Debian 8 "Jessie" release, we aim at having a complete solution to which current Debian users can dist-upgrade smoothly.
It seems their goal is to make a few minor changes to the base system that will be able to continue using Debian's package repository.

Creating a derivative that begins with Debian's base system minus systemd might be viable. It would require two conditions: 1) Enough developers to create and maintain a repository or use package installation from source. The latter is possible, the former is not. 2) The Poettering cabal does not target the new group of "haters" like they are currently targeting Gentoo. This project's goals are too wide-reaching and too ambiguous to take it seriously.


Unless, of course, they aren't bluffing and really do have enough development backing to exact a coup.

I don't think they're bluffing.

I think we're going to see a debian fork with development and wherewithal.

And I think it's going to be worldwide.

I think we're looking a whole new ball game and a brave new world.

This is forking Debian. And they can't usurp it with systemd domination.

They can't. They won't.

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 7:22 am
by username
anastasis wrote:I think we're going to see a debian fork with development and wherewithal.


I think they will see my donation after I see some progress....

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 7:46 am
by anastasis
I can understand the hesitation of throwing money at it.

I'm not sure people have really caught a new vision. Still in the thick of the chaos.

I get all that.

But I just want to dream for a moment.

I want to question all things again.

The fork doesn't have to be a fork of every last package in the debian archives.

No, it can be different. It can start small.

Why not just think in terms of producing a stable and small fork of Jessie with sysvinit.

It can be a campy little thing. A server distro built for server admins.

Anyone can use it, of course, but it will begin small and focussed.

You might even have to compile a few packages now and again that aren't yet in the archives.

But it will stir creativity again. It might even get the interest of a new generation and kind of package maintainer.

I'm saying that when you're on the ground floor, the world looks very new from this angle.

Ok, so maybe they won't fork cortiva background changer for gnome. But then again, who needs it? Furthermore, thousands and thousands of little packages like this are still in the Debian archives no really doing anything any more. Their package maintainers have long since lost interest.

So why not get lean and mean?

What this would do is force people back to fundamentals. What's important? What do we really value about the .deb packaging system that makes it worth hanging onto for our uses and fighting for?

I'm talking about a real fork, not a derivitive--an honest to goodness new team with new package maintainers and very clear values.

Right now it's just a thought. Just a whim. Just a dream.

But then again, that's all Debian ever was.

I want to see Debian become what it was in 2000. Creative. Hacker. Lean. Fun.

I want it to be everything but what it has become.

And that's why I do intend to support the efforts of this fork. I can think of a few little packages I wouldn't mind maintainer at all. Some things that have fallen out and need to be polished up and put back in.

I can't wait to see what this thing is going to be in 3 years.

I think it will astonish the world to see what people can do when they value a word called Freedom.

;)

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 7:55 am
by Randicus Draco Albus
anastasis wrote:Unless, of course, they aren't bluffing and really do have enough development backing to exact a coup.
Coup? A coup would be taking over the Debian project. Mark Shuttleworth's dream and apparently Red Hat's partial success. A fork is not a coup.

I don't think they're bluffing.
They probably are serious, but it is a delusion of grandeur.

I think we're going to see a debian fork with development and wherewithal.
Where will the developers come from? Do you have any idea how large the Debian project is?

And I think it's going to be worldwide.
Irrelevant. A dozen people spread across the world or a dozen people in one location are both a dozen people. The question is, how many developers will they attract? Enough to maintain a project as large as Debian? They need to think smaller.

I think we're looking a whole new ball game and a brave new world.
Highly doubtful.

This is forking Debian. And they can't usurp it with systemd domination.

They can't. They won't.
systemturd has already achieved domination and once Jessie is released they it will have effectively usurped Linux. The only hope of keeping it at bay is supporting the remaining existing distributions that resist. Or perhaps starting a new independent distro that will attract users. Wishful thinking is useless.


Since you posted while I was typing, I shall just add to this. (Do not want to waste the effort. :D )
The fork doesn't have to be a fork of every last package in the debian archives.

No, it can be different. It can start small.

Why not just think in terms of producing a stable and small fork of Jessie with sysvinit.

It can be a campy little thing. A server distro built for server admins.

Anyone can use it, of course, but it will begin small and focussed.

You might even have to compile a few packages now and again that aren't yet in the archives.
That is not what the people behind this fork project are suggesting.

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 8:00 am
by anastasis
Well, I don't know what this animal is going to be. I won't lie to you.

All I know is that anyone brash enough to even think of attempting the seemingly impossible has my full support.

It's crazy.

It's impractical.

It's impossible.

It's alternative.

It's politically incorrect.

....

I LOVE it!

:D

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 8:43 am
by cynwulf
To those stupid enough to donate, it's pouring money down the drain.

You can fork a piece of software, e.g. you can fork systemd or you can fork bash or OpenSSL, you can even fork some complete operating systems. What you can't fork is a distribution like Debian - a small distro, maintained maybe by a handful of people, the full extent of which fits on the install media, yes - Debian with tens of thousands of packages and thousands of developers, maintainers and contributors - with all of it's infrastructure software, bug trackers, web sites, documentation, etc and all of it's political and organisational structure, etc, is whole different prospect.

I find it hard to believe that the people behind this silly website truly believe this is possible and that it's not actually some scam to take advantage of gullible, poorly informed fools...

You also have to ask, in view of your comments on starting small, why not just start a new distribution...?

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 8:48 am
by anastasis
Well, I don't have enough information at this point to make a call in any definite way.

For all I know it could be some teenager in China with some angst.

Then again, it could represent 50% of Debian development.

We'll see, I suppose.

Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 9:10 am
by cynwulf
I recommend you throw at least a week's pay at it, on the off chance that it's "50% of Debian".

Don't even wait until you know who the completely anonymous people behind the site are - donate now!