Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » January 5th, 2015, 11:35 pm

golinux wrote:OK ya'll have convinced me this is a place I won't be coming to much any more. Waaaayyy too much negativity. Oh, and you can forget any donation from me to keep this board alive. Why try. It's already dead. Bookmark deleted. Bye . . .

I honestly expected more from you than this. Unquestioning fanboism was always frowned upon here, but it seems that with this debian fork thing, you've cast all of your usual healthy (and unhealthy) scepticism aside and just willingly donned the blinkers and gone for this thing 100%. I don't see much difference between people jumping on that particular bandwagon and those jumping on the systemd one.

What I find ironic however is that the systemd project have presented better arguments, come up with actual working code and are actually recognisable people - not some shady 'syndicate' that have as good as admitted that they're keeping their contributors' details secret to avoid the supposed stigma which will come from working against systemd...

The scepticism and "negativity" as you call it, comes from the fact that debian fork's goals are unrealistic. The website is childish propaganda aimed at ensnaring immature fanbois who frequent Linux forums and - when it comes to software - don't know their arse from their elbow. It is exploiting the hype and emotion about systemd to capture an audience and generate interest through FUD - which is why I question it.

Just as canonical/ubuntu harnessed the "humanity to others" theme, fanboism and anti-windows sentiment to push their distro in the early days - the foaming at the mouth types will be discarded and driven off once they've served their purpose.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 5th, 2015, 11:59 pm

I was going to say exactly that....but childish insults are sort of my thang...

Yea I kinda feel bad all these fanbois are throwing money at anyone claiming to listen to them...but then again a fool and his money...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » January 6th, 2015, 2:42 pm

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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 6th, 2015, 3:44 pm

At this point I would suggest they put something real together, start a new project, and try again....
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 6th, 2015, 11:52 pm

:shock:
It is fine to have a loosely organized and headless organization where we chat about how much we hate systemd, speculate about naming conventions, etc. It is another to ask for donations to an effort with nebulous leadership and goals.
The advantage I see to that method rests in the genuinely collective effort to establish a collective way of solving issues, as opposed to the super-heroic way of the enlightened individual bearing all on his shoulders and asking for followers.
Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with the second approach (collective effort), but by its nature such a project will require more time than one with a small and clear leadership. Debian has a fairly large oligarchic structure, but it did not get that way in a few months. The first order of business must be to decide on the project's structure: democratic collective, oligarchy or benevolent dictatorship. Then adjust the time frame for development based on the type of organisation. If a collective is chosen, the expected development time should be extended by a couple years. (Conservative estimate in an attempt to be polite.)

mean_dean wrote:At this point I would suggest they put something real together, start a new project, and try again....
Would it be necessary to scrap Devuan and start over? The project is still at the beginning, so if they organised themselves, they could transform the effort into a real project. Or is that more theory than reality?
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 7th, 2015, 12:13 am

Would it be necessary to scrap Devuan and start over? The project is still at the beginning, so if they organised themselves, they could transform the effort into a real project. Or is that more theory than reality?

Dunno, I guess they could. But calling devuan a distro without having the normal parts of a distro seems odd to me. But who am I to say, maybe they know exactly what they are doing. They may very well do exactly what they are saying but if it takes a year or more to do so then I am not sure it will be relevant by that time.

But as I mentioned on another forum...
I wish devuan would of stopped screaming "FORK FORK FORK" and had instead whispered "hey guys meet over here for nosystemd solutions" but I guess that ship has sailed.


Either way I guess I should shut up as it simply doesn't apply to me anyway.

Honestly a simple system that doesn't need to have workarounds to be free of systemd is more of what i want anyway. I always get lazy and install the lazy stuff but now that it comes with shit I REALLY dont want maybe it will keep me on the straight and narrow path. Maybe the existance of systemd will be good for me...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 8th, 2015, 10:55 am

mean_dean wrote:Either way I guess I should shut up as it simply doesn't apply to me anyway.
Being directly affected by something should not be a requirement to discuss it. :)

Honestly a simple system that doesn't need to have workarounds to be free of systemd is more of what i want anyway.
Perhaps a derivative, Debian minus systemd, would be a better approach? Would still be a lot of work though, since compatibility would need to be maintained.

I see one of Devuan's developers is posting on FDN. Might be progress, but considering it is FDN ... Wait and see.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » January 8th, 2015, 2:18 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:I see one of Devuan's developers is posting on FDN. Might be progress, but considering it is FDN ... Wait and see.

Is he one of devuan's "developers" though? What he's working on just seems to be independent and developed for a few operating systems, not devuan specifically.

I'm not a programmer (knowing how to slap a few printf or scanf functions around and throw a few ifs and loops in there certainly doesn't qualify me as even a beginner or someone learning (which I'm not)). But as tomazzi, who clearly is a C/C++ programmer, over at the other place pointed out: C++ is not the language of choice for writing that kind of code. In fact the idea of writing stuff like that in C++ is just as horrifying as the concept of systemd. Applications like web browsers or window managers, panels, file managers, etc yes - device node managers, system daemons and init systems - I would say not. Needless to say I would not trust nor install such software.

I must admit however that I don't know what the aim of vdev is nor why his work is not a udev or eudev fork...

Again this seems like another case of "systembsd" at the moment: i.e. a student worked on some code with the help of some OpenBSD developers (look up 'GSoC') and suddenly the tech press seize on it and everyone is talking about 'OpenBSD implementing systemd support'. This story makes it's way to the crappy Linux fanboi sites and lo and behold "'BSD' are switching to systemd"... :roll:
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 8th, 2015, 4:59 pm

cynwulf wrote: Needless to say I would not trust nor install such software.


Yea, that was why I mentioned the vdev timeline. The idea of replacing udev with something new from scratch seems a bit crazy. The idea that something like that may be being readied for the Devuan 1.0 release is just scary as hell.

Once again I wish Devuan all the luck in the world, but I don't see myself using it anytime soon...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 8th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Being directly affected by something should not be a requirement to discuss it.
Of course not but I try to limit the amount of time I waste doing so. In fact I wish I could just shut the hell up and stop wasting a second of my time doing that. Then again I am sitting here killing time before I go and do something else so I guess this is as good as any time waster.

Perhaps a derivative, Debian minus systemd, would be a better approach? Would still be a lot of work though, since compatibility would need to be maintained.

As long as it is possible to apt-get remove the junk I dont want and install the stuff I need then I guess debian is as good as any other linux. Even better as I am somewhat knowledgable about it. So I still don't see myself bothering with any other distro or even bothering to create a respin myself. That being said, I will still be using/learning openbsd too! And I never got around to trying netbsd, might check that out too but I cannot imagine I will like it more than openbsd.
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