Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby jheaton5 » December 31st, 2014, 8:13 pm

cynwulf wrote:Personally I think they should drop gnome altogether and just retain gtk3+, gnome keyring and a few other bits for compatibility's sake.

There is a very sound argument that the people who will want to run gnome will just run Debian with systemd anyway and those that actually want gnome without systemd will be a tiny minority and likely clued up enough to find their own way around it.

I agree. Most people, not all, who understand debian enough to want to keep it free from systemd have left gnome an gone to lighter de's. Gnome seems to be for those who have no interest in learning about the OS or tinkering with it. They just want something that works.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » December 31st, 2014, 10:51 pm

cynwulf wrote:There is a very sound argument that the people who will want to run gnome will just run Debian with systemd anyway and those that actually want gnome without systemd will be a tiny minority and likely clued up enough to find their own way around it.

Yep, considering that gnome and systemd go hand in hand, why bother trying to split the two. It doesn't make much sense to me that a fork would do extra work just to support the very thing that caused the fork...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 5th, 2015, 12:27 pm

Two of the main reasons I still cannot take the project seriously are the title of Veteran Unix Admins and their goal of convincing Debian derivatives to switch to Devuan as a base. I cannot tell if the former is humour, arrogance or foolishness. The latter is without a doubt delusions of grandeur. It will be difficult to achieve their goals with their sights set so high.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » January 5th, 2015, 2:20 pm

Well Dean posted this link to a thread on openbsd-misc in the other thread, but it probably should be reposted here as it's somewhat relevant (especially as it's being used on what is in fact a fund-raising page:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141135403820631&w=2

"Agenda-driven bullshit" does seem like a very apt description for that site's content. Nice to see the opinion of a "veteran unix admin" too...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby golinux » January 5th, 2015, 4:12 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:Two of the main reasons I still cannot take the project seriously are the title of Veteran Unix Admins and their goal of convincing Debian derivatives to switch to Devuan as a base. I cannot tell if the former is humour, arrogance or foolishness. The latter is without a doubt delusions of grandeur. It will be difficult to achieve their goals with their sights set so high.


The VUA is not humour, arrogance or foolishness. It's an association of admins in the Milan area. You keep blabbing like you know what you're talking about. Are you reading the mailing list? Ever get on irc to see what's happening? Probably not. So you're pretty much uninformed and pulling your opinions out of your ass. About ready to put you on ignore. This is from irc in early December:

<nextime> onelove is an alias that goes to me, jaromil and few other from the VUA group
<Simotek-Work> when was the VUA group formed nextime
<nextime> hold on i go to see when exactly
<meandean_> oh jaromil from dynebolic? the distro you DOCK and ROCK!
<nextime> Simotek-Work : ~4 years ago
<nextime> meandean_ : yes, jaromil from dyne is also a member of the vua group
<Simotek-Work> fair enough
<golinux> Ah . . .I thought VUA was new thing put together for the fork
<nextime> golinux : no, not really
<Simotek-Work> how many members has the group had before 3 weeks ago?
<nextime> VUA is an informal group born 4 years ago from few members on the Milan/Italian area
<nextime> initially was just a way to remain in contact netween us
<nextime> but then it grown from the original 20 members
<nextime> to the actual 948 in this moment
<Simotek-Work> fair enough, has there just been a IRC channel and mailing list or something?
<nextime> many in the vua groups are long time debian users, some DD, some upstream developers, all unix oriented sysadmin/developers
<nextime> 50 of then setup the debianfork.org web site
<nextime> and 10 initially,but other are joining too
<nextime> are behind the fork
<nextime> Simotek-Work : no, the vua group have just a (private) board on the web
<Simotek-Work> fair enough, nice way to be
<golinux> 50 to set up a website? How many VUAs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
<nextime> golinux : lol
<Simotek-Work> lol
<nextime> nono, just 1 setup the website, but 50 agree to take action :)
<nextime> ( jaromil was the one that setup the original debianfork.org )
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » January 5th, 2015, 5:25 pm

golinux wrote:The VUA is not humour, arrogance or foolishness. It's an association of admins in the Milan area. You keep blabbing like you know what you're talking about. Are you reading the mailing list? Ever get on irc to see what's happening? Probably not. So you're pretty much uninformed and pulling your opinions out of your ass. About ready to put you on ignore. This is from irc in early December:

I agree that people (myself included/guilty) should probably refrain from pissing over the fork until they know what it is, but at the same time, you are using some chat in IRC as some kind of "evidence" that this is a serious effort - it may well be, but people chatting on IRC is not a cert of authenticity and does not silence criticism.

Randicus however has a point that the self styled "VUA's" do seem a little suspect, when you consider that GNU/Linux is not really UNIX. In fact many *BSD developers would refrain from referring to themselves as such. If they were UNIX admins, I don't think they'd be running Debian.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 5th, 2015, 6:51 pm

golinux wrote:You keep blabbing like you know what you're talking about. Are you reading the mailing list? Ever get on irc to see what's happening? Probably not. So you're pretty much uninformed ....

Please inform us. Show us the roadmap for a udev replacement? Show us the roadmap for systemd replacements? Show us the timeline for releases? The goals for the alpha, beta, and rc builds? Show us who is working on cloning the repo. The build system they have for repackaging the packages? Show me anything but a bunch of people going in a bunch of different directions...not dissing those people or their work...but that is not the same as a distro and it certainly is not a team working on forking debian. Now those people going in all kinds of directions may prove fruitful and someone may be able to quickly pull all that together into an iso and limited set of packages. But that still does not equal having a complete clone of debian stable/testing/unstable/experimental/incoming and so forth like they claimed was the goal. Those claims to me are ridiculous as it isn't necessary to do all that just to provide a comfortable debian desktop that is free of systemd.

Once again I still don't know what they are.

The vdev discussion should be on devuan-vdev the systemd replacement work should be on devuan-notsystemd but then what discussion would you have on the mailing list...oh yea you finally got Franco saying in another month and you can expect a alpha iso without anything amazing. ...uh...ok... Where is the discussion and plans for the repo clone? Where is the discussion and plans regarding the iso images? Maybe I just cant find it. Can you point me to it?
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby golinux » January 5th, 2015, 7:30 pm

OK ya'll have convinced me this is a place I won't be coming to much any more. Waaaayyy too much negativity. Oh, and you can forget any donation from me to keep this board alive. Why try. It's already dead. Bookmark deleted. Bye . . .
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » January 5th, 2015, 7:49 pm

figures...buntards are obnoxiously and unreasonably positive about everything....in fact it is considered unacceptable to be anything but positive....

all I asked was some proof....proof beyond verbal diarrhea...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » January 5th, 2015, 10:58 pm

I freely admit I know nothing about who the VUA are. Other than that they are an anonymous group in Milan. :? What I do know is that their stated goal is too lofty to accomplish. Either they will realise that and scale down their goals or the project will fail. That is being analytical, not negative. There is nothing wrong with being optimistic, but at least one eye must keep track of reality. I cannot be optimistic as long as they continue to publish unrealistic goals.


Edit:
I must once again compare Devuan with Mageia. Mageia was a case where a distribution was successfully forked as a virtual clone.
Mageia:
Mandriva's developers were unhappy with the new owners' course of development.
Most of the developers left, took the code with them and started a fork.
After two or three years they released the first version of Mageia.
The distribution was not complete until the third release, after about another two years.

Devuan:
Many Debian users are unhappy, but the developers are not.
A group of people want to independently clone the very large project.
They have set a short time frame to accomplish the task.

I cannot see the currently stated goals of the project being viable. Can they succeed with a modified agenda? Possibly, and good luck to them. But until then ...
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