Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby golinux » November 28th, 2014, 5:59 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:It is odd that a project with no clearly stated objectives and plan to achieve them is moving so quickly. The obvious question is, what is contained in the ISO? A base Debian system without systemd? Then other questions come to mind. Wheezy or Jessie? What happens after installation? There is no point if installing a package from Debian's repository pulls in systemd. Without details, I cannot change my mind.
Currently, I think a base system. It will be for Jessie. Several DDs have come onboard to help. They expect to have it ready in time for folks to upgrade from Wheezy to Jessie. Check out #debianfork and #devuan on freenode.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby cynwulf » November 28th, 2014, 8:21 am

Well at the moment, they've started a derivative, but I suppose it's a start... I still wouldn't rush in to donate just yet however...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » November 28th, 2014, 10:51 am

Am I the only one who finds statements like "Dear Init-Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you!" a real turn-off? All right, it may just be my cynical personality, but I distrust people who keep calling themselves the Veteran Unix Admins.

We plan to innovate many of the tools that were historically used in Debian development, still mainaining stable, testing and unstable package repositories that users and downstream can use.
That means forking the entire Debian project. Delusions of grandeur.

Once installed and updated this package avoids the requirement of systemd as PID 1 and adopts systemd-shim when strictly needed.
So their grand plan is to use systemd-shim? How long will it take the cabal to eliminate that "loophole"?

Its priority is to enable diversity, interoperability and backward compatibility for existing Debian users and downstream distributions willing to preserve Init freedom.
Considering upstream developers are moving toward systemd dependency, because almost all Linux systems will soon be using it, how do they plan to keep those applications in their repositories? Freeze development at the Wheezy stage or modify every package?

They are still aiming to high. Their goal is to create a full Debian distribution with Stable, Testing and Unstable branches without systemd. Too much and unrealistic. The only way the project would be feasible is to have a small system that does not depend on Debian. But good luck to them.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby jheaton5 » November 28th, 2014, 3:33 pm

I have commented on their business plan here
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » December 25th, 2014, 4:52 pm

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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » December 25th, 2014, 5:41 pm

golinux wrote: They expect to have it ready in time for folks to upgrade from Wheezy to Jessie.

What exactly do they expect to have ready? Anyone that thinks they can fully clone debian, remove all traces of *systemd*, and have a working system ready to go in a few months....well....uh.....wow.....just wow....

golinux wrote:They already have an iso that they're testing.

They do? Where?


Randicus Draco Albus wrote:
Once installed and updated this package avoids the requirement of systemd as PID 1 and adopts systemd-shim when strictly needed.
So their grand plan is to use systemd-shim? How long will it take the cabal to eliminate that "loophole"?

Avoiding systemd as pid1 isn't that difficult to do with debian and any debian user can use systemd-shim when necessasry so I don't see that as an accomplishment anyway. That is a long LONG way from eliminating all vertiges of systemd and still having functioning desktops that the majority of users are comfortable with. And trying to actually do that with debian, a distro that has specifically adopted systemd as default and tied the vast majority of its packages to the systemd train....well...why start there rather than a distro that has not done so.

Anyway, I think I am liking systemd adoption. I think I like the idea of a chasm....
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby mean_dean » December 25th, 2014, 5:43 pm

mean_dean wrote:https://devuan.org/devuan_financial_report_2014.pdf



I wonder if I offer to do some work on something if they will buy me a laptop?


Then again I think I would prefer to just be the financial admin for the project.


or both...
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby golinux » December 25th, 2014, 6:48 pm

Oh mean_dean . . . you are soooo cynical. That's one reason we love you so much. ;) Happy to see you hanging out here again.

For the record . . . the person who received the modestly priced laptop is busting his ass trying to extract every last vestige of systemd. He is often on IRC detailing the chronicles of his adventures. And for the record, he is not one of the Italian VUAs but a very bright student and far away from Italy IIRC in Russia.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » December 25th, 2014, 11:25 pm

I think Dean has a point. Instead of starting with Debian and trying to remove something that is tangled around and within the entire system, a better option would have been to begin with a system that is still systemd-free and build up a system that resembles Debian. Perhaps Crux or Dragora would be good starting points? Both systems are minimal from a Debian perspective, so creating a package repository sans systemd would be relatively easy compared to removing the beast from Debian's vastness.
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Re: Fundraising now open for Debian Fork

Postby golinux » December 26th, 2014, 12:09 am

Devuan wants to provide the option of a smooth upgrade from Wheezy to a systemd-free Jessie (when it goes stable) for current Debian users. Not just a systemd-free OS which, I agree, would be much simpler.
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