Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 7th, 2014, 2:30 am

sgryphon wrote:I've really never seen calm technical talk win. I and others, months ago, and some years ago, went through all the technical arguments. They went nowhere. The systemd people, they just said what they were thinking. They had passion. They won the debate.
That is because they used "passion" with propaganda devoid of facts, but full of (to the ignorant) nice-sounding ideas and vague promises. In such a situation, playing by the opposition's rules plays into their hand, and the other side loose the battle by stabbing themselves.

If you're calm, it's just a sign that the thing isn't really important to you.
Nonsense.

People just ignore calm technical approaches in open forums etc. It only works in technical lists where everyone's working together to reach a technical goal. It doesn't work in debate in the end.
What does that tell you? The technicians are cooperating - with each other. They are not interested in cooperating with "the opposition."

I feel that rand's post was mostly "don't even try" "systemd has won and that's all there is to it" "you will fail, give up"
Yes. The time for action was before the mess was forced on everyone. Doing nothing allowed it to happen. Now that it is a reality, it is too late to change it.

We can't be discouraged.
No need to be. There are still alternatives. They just do not involve Linux, unless there is a large enough group of people with the skills and time to create a Linux fork. A fork of the kernel and all applications that do, and will be, tied into systemd. I doubt such a group exists. Those people are leaving.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 7th, 2014, 2:37 am

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:
sgryphon wrote:If you're calm, it's just a sign that the thing isn't really important to you.
Nonsense.

Declare nonsense all you want. Declare it up, down, left, right. Unless you are God it doesn't make a whit of difference (kinda like fighting against systemd or forking anything, right?). Those are my experiences. Your word cannot change that. Unless you are God in heaven. Are you? No.

Remaining calm is seen, is felt, as a sign that whatever you are arguing about is not very important to you. In every debate this is what I have seen.

We can't be discouraged.
No need to be. There are still alternatives. They just do not involve Linux, unless there is a large enough group of people with the skills and time to create a Linux fork. A fork of the kernel and all applications that do, and will be, tied into systemd. I doubt such a group exists. Those people are leaving.


These sorts of things used to be done all the time. Don't you remember? Think back 13 years, 14 years
Remeber those times.

All of it can be forked, specifics have been given in other threads. Such a thing would become more cathedral-like such as bsd, and less bazzar. But the bazzar has been bombed.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Buntunub » October 7th, 2014, 3:23 am

sgryphon wrote:
Randicus Draco Albus wrote:
sgryphon wrote:If you're calm, it's just a sign that the thing isn't really important to you.
Nonsense.

Declare nonsense all you want. Declare it up, down, left, right. Unless you are God it doesn't make a whit of difference (kinda like fighting against systemd or forking anything, right?). Those are my experiences. Your word cannot change that. Unless you are God in heaven. Are you? No.

Remaining calm is seen, is felt, as a sign that whatever you are arguing about is not very important to you. In every debate this is what I have seen.


The point is that whichever way you come across to them, it will make no difference. The coup is done. The decision is as final as can be. There will be no turning back. Debian is locked on Systemd for Jessie. We can discuss and debate about why it happened. How it happened. Yet nothing will change. We are past all that, and it is time now to talk about steps moving forward. Its actually simple:

1. Stick with Debian and upgrade to Jessie + Systemd.
2. Move to another Distro or OS.
3. Stick with Wheezy until EOL.
4. Work with others to either fork Debian or create a new OS that conforms with your ideals.

That's really all there is to it. A point was made that a full fork of Debian is near impossible, and this is true. If you want to fork Debian and create a Debian clone minus Systemd you will need a large team of people, so you best get started. You have A LOT of work to do!
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 7th, 2014, 6:47 am

sgryphon wrote:Unless you are God in heaven. Are you?
A god yes, but whether my realm is in a heaven or a hell is open to interpretation.

Remaining calm is seen, is felt, as a sign that whatever you are arguing about is not very important to you. In every debate this is what I have seen.
Actually, if a discussion is serious, in other words, open to differing ideas, then a calm and well delivered argument will be taken seriously. That does not mean others will agree with it, but they will judge it according to its merits. If a discussion involves people like the DDs, who have made up their minds and do not want to entertain other ideas, then neither calmness nor ranting will be effective. Just walk away.

These sorts of things used to be done all the time. Don't you remember? Think back 13 years, 14 years
Remeber those times.

No. Because Windows is so crappy, I avoided computers until I switched to Linux about six-and-a-half years ago. I was only exposed to the old days as they were coming to an end.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 7th, 2014, 10:52 am

Buntunub wrote:3. Stick with Wheezy until EOL.
4. Work with others to either fork Debian or create a new OS that conforms with your ideals.


A fork starts with a single branch.
As a precaution, I have all the debian source packages allready,
and the full binary set for some architectures.

(I'm sure many others have taken this precaution aswell, some
as a matter of course)

This is how all forks start.
I've done it more than once.
The key is a stable base, no shifting sands.
Then you can build and build, gradually, till you die.
(and it's fun all the time)

I think the Best path is 3 and then 4.
Once people stop work on Wheezy (they still release point releases)
then it is truly time to continue on from there.
There must be preperations made to be ready
by that time, however. Some have allready been done.

Perhaps the mempo and other debian-based projects
who work best in a unix-like linux can set sail
down the same river when that time comes?

As for the coup. I believe that the coupists should
be continually confronted and harranged. They should
not be allowed to get away with this without so much
as a word. They need to be exposed, pointed at, shown
to be what they are. In one's free time between working,
on projects, as a way of not burning one-self out
continually doing one and only one thing.

(One feature that would be good for such a fork would
be to provide old versions of things like python
installable alongside current versions, this is because
python (and others) break compatability between versions.
I have "old" programs that require the old versions.
Had to find and build the old version. Might aswell
package it up at some time.
Also things like earier versions of KDE would be nice.
To some degree things like this allready exist in debian
(*box wms))

A full fork of Debian is not impossible, infact debian
makes it easy to do. One change is how it always, always
starts.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 7th, 2014, 11:30 am

From: post-sysv <boycottsystemd@openmailbox.org>

I just heard your rant titled "Discussion on Poettering, SystemD, SysV, etc". I'm convinced you're mentally unstable.


Code: Select all
To: post-sysv <boycottsystemd@openmailbox.org>

,..|..
Sit and spin.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby thatsbetterinit » October 17th, 2014, 11:25 am

sgryphon wrote:I've really never seen calm technical talk win. I and others, months ago, and some years ago, went through all the technical arguments. They went nowhere. The systemd people, they just said what they were thinking. They had passion. They won the debate.

In the past, even in other areas, I never saw calmness win. If I calmly asked a question of how to use something, days would go by and no response. 5 min after showing anger or some emotion, there was a conversation going and a solution.

If you're calm, it's just a sign that the thing isn't really important to you.


and if you turn the thermostat down too low in winter, you might freeze. but if you turn it up all the way 24/7, you can't afford the heating bills.

some emotion is good. i don't understand why you and the boycottsystemd people are being so rude to each other. you're on the same side, there was no point in you attacking them for telling you that your idea won't work. not that there was much point for them to be so dismissive, even if they're quite possibly right.

emotion is sometimes necessary, and too much of it often takes over, making people forget why they set out to do anything in the first place. it's not very useful at that stage.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 17th, 2014, 6:50 pm

.
Last edited by sgryphon on October 17th, 2014, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 17th, 2014, 6:50 pm

You're wrong on the heating bill: we do turn it all the way up all winter and can afford it. Thanks to clean burning affordable natural gas (TM). You should switch today.
Winter is most of the year here.

In the hypothetical: it is they who pay the cost as they must respond to an emotionally charged argument: that is more difficult than responding to a technical argument.
Technical arguments are only frosting on the cake, and the only ones of those that work at all are ... "emotional" technical arguments:
IE: convincing because one likes or loves simplicity, etc. Or convincing because one assumes forced complexity is part of a plot to subvert/hack/spy etc (which it may be).

All debates between people become emotional and are won or lost on emotion. Nothing else ever works. Ever (I've never seen it).
Dialing things up as far as one can, not holding back, giving it your all, is the only thing I've ever seen or experienced working. The only path to victory, the only way to defeat your enemy.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby thatsbetterinit » October 17th, 2014, 11:43 pm

sgryphon wrote:You're wrong on the heating bill: we do turn it all the way up all winter and can afford it.


i stand corrected. but the "technical points" thing is always dishonest, always changing the subject, they may as well say "please restrict your argument to the parts you agree with us on."

it also gives them more room to lie. if someone "keeps it technical" and says "this will break blah and blah and blah" then someone dishonest can say "no it won't, we already addressed that." and when they addressed it, they were "technical" but there was no meat to it. they simply claim "no, it's fine." and the only retort you have is "well, you've said that before, and were lying." OOPS, THAT'S NOT "TECHNICAL!"

theoretically, you can have logical arguments that stay away from ad hom and stick to technical "merits." but only a fool would fall for the idea that some of the biggest concerns aren't considered technical concerns because they're talking about things that LP and systemd devs find irrelevant to them... when really, the fact that systemd devs think they're the arbiters of what's relevant and should/shouldn't be broken/abandoned IS THE BIGGEST TECHNICAL PROBLEM with the whole endeavor.

but we can't talk about that, because mr. technical can just say "modular, that's my final answer" over and over, even while breaking modularity, and keeping him honest is called "off-topic" and "hating." in short, logic plus lying plus not being able to point out false premises is a fallacy too. but we'll call it "technicality..." ...-ism. one of the problems when you deal with torvalds is, torvalds started the whole "you accept me, and also my bullshit or i call you hater" thing when he ranted about free software versus open co-opting. a little honesty would make a huuuuge difference. but honesty isn't always a feature. :( i haven't liked torvalds since. the only way he's better than poettering is a. he's more skilled and intelligent and b. he doesn't have the same love of breaking things. important points, but not enough to make him a great person.
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