Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby cynwulf » October 6th, 2014, 2:43 pm

golinux wrote:Did you forget to take your meds? Now methinks you're talking to yourself aka rastamouse.

You should take your meds. :lol:
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby golinux » October 6th, 2014, 5:09 pm

rastamouse wrote:
golinux wrote:Did you forget to take your meds? Now methinks you're talking to yourself aka rastamouse.

You should take your meds. :lol:

100% doctor- and pharma-free here, thank you. No other substances meddling with my thought processes either. ;)
Last edited by golinux on October 7th, 2014, 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Buntunub » October 6th, 2014, 6:41 pm

I really don't get where all this "community Distro" came from? Debian has never been like that. It has always been a tightly controlled democracy consisting of the DDs and some maintainers. Everyone else has little say. Since as long as I can remember the codeword for everything has always been that Debian is a do-ocracy, and it has. Their attitude has always been, don't like something? Get involved and eventually you can make a difference. And by "eventually", that means after years and years and years of slave work as a maintainer and eventual DD, then.. maaaaaaaybe.... your input might be taken for some small project or another. Aside from that, you can get involved with an upstream project and make a difference that way, much sooner.

As far as Corporate involvment in Linux. It has always been that way and rightly so. This is Open Source. This is not your private OS where you get to have a say in who contributes to it. Corporations tend to have the $$$ to pay someone to spend their days writing code so they can get the functionalities they want, but then they contribute back. This is how Open Source works, and what has made it the overwhelming force it has now become. So Linux is, and has always been a do-ocracy. Those who DO, get to have what they want. Those who complain get nothing.

A lot of people are very unhappy with the Systemd takeover, but I think most of us realized a while ago that there is nothing we can do about it without A LOT of seasoned developers AND the infrastructure to support them. ONE GUY so far as I can tell is the only one putting his time/efforts into making a difference, and that is Edbarx, and I think one other person is/has helped him a bit... Uselessd, Boycott Systemd -- complete nonsense far as I can tell right now. Now lets talk about Gentoo and Slackware.

Slackware - Volkerding in the last interview I read said that he will not make the move to Systemd until it is no longer feasible to hold out. That DOES NOT mean Slackware will not move to Systemd. More than likely, Slackware will be releasing its next point release with it in because Systemd is so tightly integrated with too many other things that it is quickly becoming Linux itself.

Gentoo - See the bit about Slackware above. They will be moving to Systemd. Count on it. In fact, that will be the fate of every Linux distro still in existance, sooner rather than later.

Now let's look at the BSDs. Poetering has called the BSDs insignificant and not worth his time/efforts. They are probably your only refuge. For now. That will change as well in time as more people move to them. That aside, the BSDs operate under a different license scheme and I would not call them Open Source, because they are not. Last I checked, you do not have to contribute back to the codebase as you do with a GPL license. With more and more Open Source projects leaping onto the Systemd bandwagon, soon some or even all Open Source stuff will require some type of Systemd libs to even work, making it harder and harder for BSD devs to catch up.

I do not see ANY good prospects on the horizon anymore. Who knows, maybe someone will come up with a new OS for people like us some day that values freedom and true Open Source development with a new type of license that forbids this type of hijacking. Hey, I can live in lala land too with a pipe dream like that! :shock:
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby FretfulMother » October 6th, 2014, 7:20 pm

I do agree with what you say.

Regarding edbarx: Well, i remember when he proudly posted a self-written most basic calculator /(most basic: +, - , / and * ). If i remember it, it can't be more long ago than 6 years. He probably evolved since then, but no one learns coding (such stuff) that fast. I like it that he does it, but i think a grain of salt won't hurt.
(dzz said it works for him, and that is good enough for me. I still would hesitate to insert it to my system).

-
I also agree with the answer given in the emails, btw.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 7:38 pm

rastamouse wrote:What you're describing is just a derivative "based on Debian" project, not a "fork". You need to use the correct wording. Sticking with wheezy forever does not sound good. I assume you will security patch and support all of the obsolete software forever as well?


Yes, mr detractor, and FUCK you for deriding "obsolete" software. FUCK YOU.
Wheezy will atleast continue to be a unix-like OS.

You clearly have no clue about grsecurity or other ways to mitigate many security issues. It's, in many ways, a magic bullet for many classes of security issues.

And no, I don't have to "Write my own OS", fucking BULLSHIT you spew. Obviously what is being talked about is FORKING an allready existant distro. You obviously know that but you have to bring up red-herrings.

FUCK YOU.

And yes I have forked software before, more than once. And yes splitting off a distro and going forward with that IS called a FORK.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby cynwulf » October 6th, 2014, 7:59 pm

Buntunub wrote:Now let's look at the BSDs. Poetering has called the BSDs insignificant and not worth his time/efforts. They are probably your only refuge. For now. That will change as well in time as more people move to them. That aside, the BSDs operate under a different license scheme and I would not call them Open Source, because they are not. Last I checked, you do not have to contribute back to the codebase as you do with a GPL license. With more and more Open Source projects leaping onto the Systemd bandwagon, soon some or even all Open Source stuff will require some type of Systemd libs to even work, making it harder and harder for BSD devs to catch up.

Wrong, the *BSD's are as open source it gets and will never move to crap like systemd. Perhaps do some basic reading and research.
sgryphon wrote:[impotent insult ridden rant]

Underpants too tight? :roll:
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Buntunub » October 6th, 2014, 8:31 pm

rastamouse wrote:Wrong, the *BSD's are as open source it gets and will never move to crap like systemd. Perhaps do some basic reading and research.


https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

The two major categories of free software license are copyleft and non-copyleft . Copyleft licenses such as the GNU GPL insist that modified versions of the program must be free software as well. Non-copyleft licenses do not insist on this. We recommend copyleft, because it protects freedom for all users, but non-copylefted software can still be free software, and useful to the free software community.


If a program is written based upon BSD code, does it have to be contributed back to the community? Or can I simply write the program and then make it proprietary, thus giving you nothing back from my improvements/modifications?

I do agree that the BSD style license is certainly more "Open Source" than say.. Windows. But that is because the BSD code is open source and anyone can study or modify it. They do not have to contribute back to it though, because it is not copyleft. Hey, since we are discussing Systemd, let's look at their license, LGPL V2.1+, which IS coplyleft:

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-2.1.html

For example, if you distribute copies of the library, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that we gave you. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. If you link other code with the library, you must provide complete object files to the recipients, so that they can relink them with the library after making changes to the library and recompiling it. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.


So, to address your assertion that *BSD licenses are as Open Source as it gets.. Clearly, it is not. Far from it, in fact.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 6th, 2014, 11:22 pm

sgryphon wrote:Yes, mr detractor, and FUCK you for deriding "obsolete" software. FUCK YOU. ...

You began by stating your concern over the systemd debacle as a Debian and Linux user worried about the future of both and wanting to do something. However, by starting numbers rant threads, complaining on mailing lists without much planning and cursing at people who disagree with you on some points, you have become exactly what the evil systemd cabal claim all people are who oppose them: ranting haters driven only by emotion. If you continue like this, you will only hurt your cause.
Klingons are fun, but Romulans are the sexiest women in the galaxy.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby thatsbetterinit » October 6th, 2014, 11:30 pm

Randicus Draco Albus wrote:If you continue like this, you will only hurt your cause.


i sympathize, but randicus is right. imo the problem is that the init system is a huge deal (and it's not just the init system) so leaving a tiny tc up to decide our fates was... sloppy.

i'm in favor of you sending whatever emails you want to, but if you want them to be effective, you should really let this happen in a less-tc-like way.

in other words, take advice and critique from people who share your desire for systemd to NOT take over the world. that's most people here.

anyone else that doesn't fit that description might have useful advice anyway. i don't know for sure which side of this rasta is on, but i am sure that at least some of his take on this is accurate and useful. don't be like the technical committee; be patient and act wisely. good luck.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 7th, 2014, 1:51 am

I've really never seen calm technical talk win. I and others, months ago, and some years ago, went through all the technical arguments. They went nowhere. The systemd people, they just said what they were thinking. They had passion. They won the debate.

In the past, even in other areas, I never saw calmness win. If I calmly asked a question of how to use something, days would go by and no response. 5 min after showing anger or some emotion, there was a conversation going and a solution.

If you're calm, it's just a sign that the thing isn't really important to you.

People just ignore calm technical approaches in open forums etc. It only works in technical lists where everyone's working together to reach a technical goal. It doesn't work in debate in the end.

That's just my experience and why I just post whatever the feeling is, to a video or mailing list.

Calmness comes when programming or making media, hours of endless calm.

I feel that rand's post was mostly "don't even try" "systemd has won and that's all there is to it" "you will fail, give up" and then only at the end was the sprinkle of sugar "i don't like systemd either (but no use fighting any of this)). My gut feeling was that he really has no problem with systemd, the last part is the only thing to really go the other way. That's just my feeling. Might be wrong (doesn't matter either way). He was also saying alot of things I know to be untrue due to my own experience (which I won't cite, to protect the guilty).

We can't be discouraged.
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