Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

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Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 5:39 am

post-sysv<boycottsystemd@openmailbox.org>
Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 1:38 PM

Petitions will not accomplish anything. The Debian decision has already been made. They will not switch back because of the whims of a few rabid systemd haters (ones that seem uninformed and overly driven by emotion).

Forking Debian sounds like another exceptionally bad idea. The thought of inheriting an entire distro's codebase, one that is enshrined in such petty bureaucracy to begin with, all because you don't like their initd/system daemon/kitchen sink, is absolutely insane. You can maintain an alternative package repository, perhaps.

Promoting and working on alternative systems and distributions is probably the best thing you can do. Get involved with Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, contribute to uselessd/OpenRC/nosh/whatever, as well as systembsd and related API reimplementations.

Maybe start a project to try and disentangle systemd-logind from systemd as PID1, and make it an independent daemon like ConsoleKit?

There are many things you can do to fight systemd. Whining about the evil corporations and hyperventilating on a message board is unproductive and likely demonstrates ignorance/inability.


Followed By:
post-sysv<boycottsystemd@openmailbox.org>
Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 1:49 PM

Petitions will not accomplish anything. The Debian decision has already been made. They will not switch back because of the whims of a few rabid systemd haters (ones that seem uninformed and overly driven by emotion).

Forking Debian sounds like another exceptionally bad idea. The thought of inheriting an entire distro's codebase, one that is enshrined in such petty bureaucracy to begin with, all because you don't like their initd/system daemon/kitchen sink, is absolutely insane. You can maintain an alternative package repository, perhaps.

Promoting and working on alternative systems and distributions is probably the best thing you can do. Get involved with Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, contribute to uselessd/OpenRC/nosh/whatever, as well as systembsd and related API reimplementations.

Maybe start a project to try and disentangle systemd-logind from its belligerent PID1, and make it an independent daemon like ConsoleKit?

There's plenty of things you can do to fight systemd. Whining about evil corporate interests and hyperventilating on a message board is both unproductive and indicates poorly on your abilities and understanding of the situation.


In reply to:
Code: Select all
A desire for a petition was expressed. You were mentioned:
http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=3031&p=29062

Quote:
by Randicus Draco Albus » October 5th, 2014, 12:40 am
I am not saying this would be of any use, but ...

If this is the approach some people want to take, it would be better
to present the target with a petition. A joint request from many
people would have a better chance of being taken seriously, than one
or two individual requests. And a petition with a couple dozen names
would still be a waste of effort. The petition would need to be posted
on a website to collect names. Perhaps ask the boycott systemd people
if they would host it. If the petition collects enough signatures, a
couple hundred would nice, then present it to whom it may concern.

Another avenue to consider is contact developers of systems like Crux,
Gentoo and Slackware to gauge their opposition to systemd and offer to
help. They develop with the intent to avoid sytemd and concerned users
encourage others to switch to those those systems. (Probably futile,
since Linux is no longer open to individual development, but under the
control of three companies, but it might be interesting to see how
committed certain distributions are and how seriously they consider
users.)

To reiterate; I think it is a waste of time, but these are ideas for
the willing to consider.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 5:45 am

Dual replys in-kind.
Fuck You.


Followed by:
Fuck You.
Maybe start a project to pile more fucking on crap?

There's plenty of things you can do in that way. Whining about the fact that you don't get payed
like the people who might want their once-profitable software industry back could be a start.
Or maybe it's not.

?????Who Knows???????


(not meant to make sense)
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 6th, 2014, 6:41 am

The Debian decision has already been made. They will not switch back because of the whims of a few rabid systemd haters (ones that seem uninformed and overly driven by emotion).
That syas it all. People who oppose systemd are uninformed. It is merely a coincidence that the people opposed to it are also the knowledgeable users. Go figure. The powers-that-be in Linuxland have decreed the future. Anyone who opposes the decree is ignorant and driven by emotion.

Forking Debian sounds like another exceptionally bad idea. The thought of inheriting an entire distro's codebase, one that is enshrined in such petty bureaucracy to begin with, all because you don't like their initd/system daemon/kitchen sink, is absolutely insane. You can maintain an alternative package repository, perhaps.
The informed systemd supporters are so knowledgeable that they believe systemd is only an initialisation process. :roll:

Bottom line; trying to cooperate with, reason with or stop the systemd people is a hopeless battle. For those who want to continue using Linux without the new integrated system, the only hope is to fork the Linux kernel and maintain a repository with a small number of essential packages. But that requires having enough skilled people to serve as developers. How many would be interested?
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby cynwulf » October 6th, 2014, 10:08 am

Sorry to piss on your bonfire, but you got the response you deserved. Actually it was well worded and he was probably trying to be nice. He stated the facts, with perhaps a bit of snark, but that's to be expected. Your "Fuck You" response was not very clever...

I will go over the points if you care to listen to reason (or you can post "fuck you" or whatever)

post-sysv<boycottsystemd@openmailbox.org>
Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 1:49 PM

Petitions will not accomplish anything. The Debian decision has already been made. They will not switch back because of the whims of a few rabid systemd haters (ones that seem uninformed and overly driven by emotion).

Did you expect to achieve anything through a petition? If you got together 1000 signatures from people who contribute nothing in the way of donations, equipment, code, manpower to the Debian project, would you expect anyone to care?

What if 5000 of the systemd fanbois sent their petition stating the reverse position? What then? Do you think software development should be governed my uninformed people who write petitions or by developers who know what they're doing? If you have a choice between free software developed by people who know what they're doing or by the systemd cabal, which do you choose?

Forking Debian sounds like another exceptionally bad idea. The thought of inheriting an entire distro's codebase, one that is enshrined in such petty bureaucracy to begin with, all because you don't like their initd/system daemon/kitchen sink, is absolutely insane. You can maintain an alternative package repository, perhaps.

This is 100% true. Forking Debian is nothing short of an insane proposal - straight out of la la land... "forking Debian" is being discussed as if you just need to take a snapshot of the latest stable make some changes and release that. Debian is a huge project, with thousands of developers and a lot of bureaucracy involved. You have to have vast resources and people to maintain a project like that. Not only is it completely infeasible, it's just not worth it.

In fact the very nature and structure of Debian is the very reason why it's now just another systemd distro. It has a structure which allows those with corporate interest to get involved and become the "doers", this means that when there are votes, these people and their interests come to the fore. That's how it is. Don't want that? Use a smaller projects distribution where systemd has been ruled out.

@Randicus: He refers to systemd as "initd/system daemon/kitchen sink", this shows that he has a full grasp of what systemd is about.
Promoting and working on alternative systems and distributions is probably the best thing you can do. Get involved with Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, contribute to uselessd/OpenRC/nosh/whatever, as well as systembsd and related API reimplementations.

Maybe start a project to try and disentangle systemd-logind from its belligerent PID1, and make it an independent daemon like ConsoleKit?

This is the only thing you, as users, can do about systemd - support alternatives and vote with your feet (in other words boycott). He lists the distros that you, as people who are obviously thoroughly opposed to systemd, should be supporting and what you can do to throw a spanner in the works of what Poettering/Red Hat Inc/gnome/others are trying to do. If someone develops alternatives, distro providers may use that instead of just jumping on the systemd bandwagon. tl;dr - the attack on systemd needs to be focused on upstream software, not distros, who are just packagers. If you don't like what your current distro does - don't use it. - it's that simple.
There's plenty of things you can do to fight systemd. Whining about evil corporate interests and hyperventilating on a message board is both unproductive and indicates poorly on your abilities and understanding of the situation.

There are also *BSD operating systems and other free UNIX-like which won't be running systemd. The OpenBSD project is developing "systembsd" which is intended as a drop in replacement for systemd functionality (kind of like what systemd-shim does, for now, and more). This is an example of developers sitting down to write code to avoid having systemd foisted on them rather than procrastinating unproductively.

Moaning about this is understandable, a lot of people are pissed about it, including me, but many of the threads on forks and petitions I've seen here lately are going nowhere.

An anti-systemd Debian forums will be fruitless, pointless and downright idiotic. Better to just get a new domain name and change the site to be more general than do that.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 11:28 am

Distros are not always just packagers, or they do not have to be (gentoo is not, debian is not for various projects (ice*)) The source code exists in some distros, that software is real. It does not bit rot. It will work fine with software from its' age 32 years from now as long as the kernel and X support the hardware.

There is no reason a distro cannot become "upstream". You do NOT have to keep up with the joneses.

Forking debian is not insane, especially at this juncture where "upstream" is making radical changes and more-or-less building a new operating system: it is a natural bifurcation point. All that is needed at the minimum is to keep, say 7.x, installable on newer computers. That means newer kernel for the install dvd once in awhile. For it to be adequate key pieces of software need to be patched for security (grsec/pax for the kernel, forward facing services when they have non-boilerplate exploits). That's about it. Hardly any new video chipsets come out these days either, so X drivers don't need to be updated as often.

Systemd you. Go to lennart.
Some people say.... well they say.... that you don't hate systemd enough....
Last edited by sgryphon on October 6th, 2014, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 11:39 am

"as if you just need to take a snapshot of the latest stable make some changes and release that"
Nope that won't work, but let's change it.

"as if you just need to take a snapshot of the last stable non-systemd release make some changes and release that"
Yes, you can do exactly that, while maintaining only a small set of key packages and patching the kernel
to mitigate various classes of exploits. You do not have to stay on the upgrade treadmill for everything.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby sgryphon » October 6th, 2014, 11:45 am

rastamouse wrote:...


It's sad that you both acknowledge the corporate involvement in debian, and that you do not see it as a problem.

It's dead as a community distro. It has been subverted.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby Randicus Draco Albus » October 6th, 2014, 12:13 pm

I read it as neither defending nor attacking Debian, but simply describing the structure in a matter-of-fact manner.
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby cynwulf » October 6th, 2014, 12:33 pm

sgryphon wrote:Distros are not always just packagers, or they do not have to be (gentoo is not, debian is not for various projects (ice*)) The source code exists in some distros, that software is real. It does not bit rot. It will work fine with software from its' age 32 years from now as long as the kernel and X support the hardware.

You don't need the entire Debian code base and debian package management for a small project. Just port the bits you want and leave out what you don't. Why take a systemd distribution and have to spend time undoing all of the system integration when you can just build what you want how you want to start with? Whatever you do your Debian fork won't be Debian minus systemd and won't be seen as an alternative. It will be just another pointless derivative rather than a "fork".

sgryphon wrote:There is no reason a distro cannot become "upstream". You do NOT have to keep up with the joneses.

That would be an "OS", if you're capable of writing an OS from scratch go ahead.

sgryphon wrote:Forking debian is not insane, especially at this juncture where "upstream" is making radical changes and more-or-less building a new operating system: it is a natural bifurcation point. All that is needed at the minimum is to keep, say 7.x, installable on newer computers. That means newer kernel for the install dvd once in awhile. For it to be adequate key pieces of software need to be patched for security (grsec/pax for the kernel, forward facing services when they have non-boilerplate exploits). That's about it. Hardly any new video chipsets come out these days either, so X drivers don't need to be updated as often.

What you're describing is just a derivative "based on Debian" project, not a "fork". You need to use the correct wording. Sticking with wheezy forever does not sound good. I assume you will security patch and support all of the obsolete software forever as well?

sgryphon wrote:It's sad that you both acknowledge the corporate involvement in debian, and that you do not see it as a problem.

Where did I say that I didn't see corporate involvement as a problem? But have you also looked into every other package on your system and have you excluded all software which has "corporate involvement"? That very much includes the kernel by the way. The kernel is pretty much controlled by Torvalds and a few corporate donors, this has been the case for a long time. The kernel, linuxfoundation, Torvalds and some key kernel devs have no problem whatsoever with systemd. They are welcoming it with open arms. As has been noted - RMS has made no noise about systemd either.
sgryphon wrote:It's dead as a community distro. It has been subverted.

When was Debian a "community distro"? Debian has always been a project maintained by Debian members, if you are not a member you have absolutely no say and cannot just upload your shit to incoming and expect to see it in unstable in a few days. There is a reason why the Debian repos are a trusted resource with signed packages, etc...
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Re: Response from boycottsystemd people to petition request

Postby golinux » October 6th, 2014, 2:16 pm

sgryphon wrote:Dual replys in-kind.
Fuck You.


Followed by:
Fuck You.
Maybe start a project to pile more fucking on crap?

There's plenty of things you can do in that way. Whining about the fact that you don't get payed
like the people who might want their once-profitable software industry back could be a start.
Or maybe it's not.

?????Who Knows???????


(not meant to make sense)

Did you forget to take your meds? Now methinks you're talking to yourself aka rastamouse.
May the FORK be with you!
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